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Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
- Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
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RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Koen G > 11-12-2024, 12:16 PM
(11-12-2024, 11:23 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How so?
Because the evidence so far points towards the custom you refer to gaining popularity in the 2nd half of the 15th century.
(11-12-2024, 11:23 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.it is more important to highlight the external boundary as the internal boundary is marked by other features.
Isn't that exactly the opposite of what your examples show though? The hashing is touching those areas already marked by other features. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 12:32 PM
This illustrates what my interpretation of the hashing(and throughout the page I interpret the areas next to the hashing as land. So in the case of some bodies of water like rivers the width of the area covered by water is narrow whilst in other cases like lakes and sea the area covered by water is wider): -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 12:41 PM
(11-12-2024, 12:16 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(11-12-2024, 11:23 AM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.How so?
Because the evidence so far points towards the custom you refer to gaining popularity in the 2nd half of the 15th century.
There is no evidence that is unpopular in the early 15th century northern Italian maps. Unfortunately there are not so many examples of northern Italian maps featuring water from 1404 to 1438. I will do my best to track down as many examples as I can. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
pedestrian > 11-12-2024, 01:21 PM
The moment to hash out this question might already have passed, but perhaps the word Mark is looking for could be hatching (finely drawn parallel lines) rather than hashing (chopping up food, or using a computer function to map variable length input to fixed length output)?
Sorry, don't mean to make a further hash of this thread. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Koen G > 11-12-2024, 01:22 PM
Regarding the parallel lines, it does seem clear that the VM uses the motif throughout for various purposes, so it needn't always mean the same thing. Sometimes it may even be ambiguous by design.
Here are two clips from f75r:
The one on the right does show something close to what you have in mind, but not entirely. The parallel lines are marked by a border where they touch the land, so we see clearly what's going on. Additionally, the pattern seems to be intended to represent the "cliff" surface with some depth, so we know the water is lower than the land. Look at the whole puddle on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and you will see that it is not quite like the mapmakers' shorelines.
On the rosettes page, too, we see parallel lines used to represent cliffsides, but also other things. The pink arrow points to cliffside usage, the rest seems to radiate from the scallops, without a pen line to denote any land border.
That's all I got though. If you still think that what I say makes no sense, you will automatically win the discussion. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Koen G > 11-12-2024, 01:27 PM
(11-12-2024, 01:21 PM)pedestrian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The moment to hash out this question might already have passed, but perhaps the word Mark is looking for could be hatching (finely drawn parallel lines) rather than hashing (chopping up food, or using a computer function to map variable length input to fixed length output)?
Sorry, don't mean to make a further hash of this thread.
Hashing is also "a function that turns data into a string of nondescript text"
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RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 01:39 PM
(11-12-2024, 01:21 PM)pedestrian Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The moment to hash out this question might already have passed, but perhaps the word Mark is looking for could be hatching (finely drawn parallel lines) rather than hashing (chopping up food, or using a computer function to map variable length input to fixed length output)?
Sorry, don't mean to make a further hash of this thread.
You are probably right. I think hatching is the correct term. I used hashing like the hashing sign # Though actually it appears from a quick google that the terms hash or hashings are sometimes used for parallel lines(I can provide references if necessary, however I think this rather takes us away from the topic at hand) But I don't know the best term to use, so I opted for the term "hashing" rather than "rays" as that gives a specific interpretation to their meaning which I don't agree with. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 01:52 PM
(11-12-2024, 01:22 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding the parallel lines, it does seem clear that the VM uses the motif throughout for various purposes, so it needn't always mean the same thing. Sometimes it may even be ambiguous by design.
That is why I haven't dwelled too much on this topic in the past as parallel lines are such a simple geometric pattern and one can be in danger of reading too much into simple details like that.
When encountering simple geometric patterns or simple small numbers one can easily read too much into their interpretation. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 02:06 PM
(11-12-2024, 01:22 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's all I got though. If you still think that what I say makes no sense, you will automatically win the discussion.
There is some sense to what you say, but I don't think it invalidates my interpretation at all.
I don't quite know what you mean by "automatically win the discussion". I don't see this is about winning by rather debating the most plausible interpretation of the rosettes folio. I think the most plausible interpretation is a map due to a variety of geographic features illustrated, especially the distinctly drawn distributed buildings. The features of the page that are not map-like I think can be explained in the context of the page being a map better than the features that are map-like can be explained in the context of the page being a non-map. In fact, this is why non-map theorists normally completely ignore all the map-like features like the buildings in their interpretation as they can't explain them. I can account for the non-map-like features in my map interpretation of the page. -
RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport
Mark Knowles > 11-12-2024, 02:14 PM
(11-12-2024, 01:22 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's all I got though. If you still think that what I say makes no sense, you will automatically win the discussion.
However I do agree that there may not be more to say on this matter and we are in danger of "flogging a death horse" so to speak.
Ultimately time will tell which interpretation of the page is the correct one "map" or not, but I know what I am putting my money on metaphorically speaking. Also the fact that other theorists can't account for so many details or aspects of the page I think is a real issue with those theories as I have already stated, whereas I have made a concerted effect to account for all details.