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Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

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• Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 04:34 PM

  It is noteworthy that the use of blue and wavy lines to represent water on maps is particularly common at the time from when the Voynich dates in the region of Europe I associate it with whereas at some times and other places water could be represented with continuous blue or green paint and not with alternating blue and white wavy lines.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 05:17 PM

  Koen: And one key is how do you account for the different sizes and shapes of the areas covered by "blue and white wavy lines" or "scallops"? For me that is simple, they are different sizes and shapes as they represent bodies of water that have different sizes and shapes. So, for example, on the top side of the causeway from the top centre rosette to the top right Rosette the "scallops" cover a much wider area than on the bottom side.
  
  
  
  And as I show again in the diagram below the areas covered by these blue and white wavy lines is quite large with many different sizes, shapes and orientations:

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  R. Sale > 10-12-2024, 09:09 PM

  There is a problem with the definitions of terminology. While wavy is great as a generic description, there is a distinction to be made. Several examples of "waves" in the (unreferenced) illustrations above in Post #105 are actually 'wavey' or 'undy' in heraldic terminology. Round at the top and round on the bottom, like a sine wave. Or round on both sides, if you prefer.
  
  The "waves" in the VMs (items #2 & #3 from map above Post #112, plus the clarified example) are only rounded on one side and decidedly pointed on the other. This type of line structure is designated by the heraldic terms 'engrailed" and 'invected' (points out or points in.) So, while the structure certainly looks like waves, that is the wrong terminology.
  
  The problem with engrailed/invected lines is - in relation to what? The examples in items #2 & #3 pose the same question of relationship. Are these examples of waves from the ocean washing up on strange shores? If so, the pointed side is oriented in the wrong direction.
  
  On the other hand, if waves are emanating from the rosettes, the waves would be moving away, depicted like a cloud band and the hatching lines as rays of light would further confirm this interpretation.
  
  While some rosettes do have illustrations that can be interpreted as geographical representations, other rosettes seem to be lacking. Their patterns are quite abstract. What's important here is the text, the twice-marked band in the central rosette.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 09:38 PM

  (10-12-2024, 09:09 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are these examples of waves from the ocean washing up on strange shores? If so, the pointed side is oriented in the wrong direction.

  I don't see what you mean. If you look at my analysis of the rosettes folio most of the waves I do not interpret as from the ocean washing up on a strange shore rather lakes and rivers. It is only the top right rosette where I argue there are waves going into the mediterranean sea. Anyway waves can go in two directions when the tide is coming in and when the tide is going out.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 09:49 PM

  (10-12-2024, 09:09 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the other hand, if waves are emanating from the rosettes, the waves would be moving away, depicted like a cloud band and the hatching lines as rays of light would further confirm this interpretation.
  
  While some rosettes do have illustrations that can be interpreted as geographical representations, other rosettes seem to be lacking. Their patterns are quite abstract. What's important here is the text, the twice-marked band in the central rosette.

  
  It is true that the waves are normally drawn emanating outwards from the causeways(not really the case in the bottom left rosette), but I take that as a stylistic consideration. You could make similar critical arguments about the directions of waves on other known maps.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  R. Sale > 10-12-2024, 09:53 PM

  Surfing > out to sea > fer sher!
  
  I'd say that the direction of propagation is a significant factor in regard to *what* it is that was being propagated. Also, that the pointed side inicates the direction of origination.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 10:02 PM

  (10-12-2024, 09:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Surfing > out to sea > fer sher!

  Not quite sure I follow what you are saying.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 10:13 PM

  (10-12-2024, 09:09 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.While some rosettes do have illustrations that can be interpreted as geographical representations, other rosettes seem to be lacking. Their patterns are quite abstract. What's important here is the text, the twice-marked band in the central rosette.

  Well, in my interpretation of the page the illustrations aren't quite so abstract. However, as I have discussed before there are certainly map-like features to the page and certain non-map-like features to the page. So the question remains if the page is a map, but with non-map-like features or is the page a non-map with map-like features or is it some kind of hybrid. Features like the distinct distributed buildings on the page, non-map theorists tend to ignore as though they are unimportant.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 10:18 PM

  (10-12-2024, 09:53 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Surfing > out to sea > fer sher!
  
  I'd say that the direction of propagation is a significant factor in regard to *what* it is that was being propagated. Also, that the pointed side inicates the direction of origination.

  Well, the direction of propagation is not inconsistent with them representing water waves. Ultimately the direction of propagation and orientation of the waves in all maps of the time is pretty arbitrary, but that doesn't stop them from being maps. I could make the same kind of objection to known medieval maps.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  ReneZ > 11-12-2024, 01:32 AM

  (10-12-2024, 01:30 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hear are a few examples of map waves and hashing:
  
  There are 4 examples showing hashing where water meets land. And there are 4 examples showing water represented by blue and wavy lines.

  
  While I always enjoy seeing examples of historical images, many of these are not at all from the early 15th century. Some could be older but some are definitely newer. I only checked the Ferrara map and it is from 1679 (approx).
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