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Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

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• Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Koen G > 26-11-2024, 04:31 PM

  (26-11-2024, 02:55 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the whole the patterns that you refer to here don't seem that similar to me anyway to what we see in the Voynich illustration.

  
  Not that similar? What do you expect exactly? Which examples are better?

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Linda > 26-11-2024, 06:58 PM

  (26-11-2024, 10:40 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From the manuscript Scarecrow posted in the other thread:
  
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (f9)

  
  I find the example pic to denote clouds or nebuly ephemeral spirit lines (ie denoting holiness or grandeur of the people, and them being elsewhere, not actual cloud people) even though the lines are scalloped and not nebuly. I think the light lines create this effect also. I think the blue here is sky, heaven, purity. 
  
  The vms pic looks more earthly to me, like layers of rock with vegetation growing on it. The blue strikes me as being related to water. It is similar to what can be found on the other side with regard to the bird nest, i don't think it is being used as a spiritual boundry. That page looks more like a treatise on rock and mountain formation to me. On the rosette page I take it as there are various mountains along the journey.
  
  
  
  A precedent for this representation could be Beatus Maps, of which copies had been made for centuries prior.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  R. Sale > 26-11-2024, 08:31 PM

  (26-11-2024, 10:40 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.From the manuscript Scarecrow posted in the other thread:
  
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (f9)

  
  There are many different versions of the cloud band (wolkenband) or cosmic boundary beyond those based on the heraldic pattern of the nebuly line, examples of which have already been found in some VMs illustrations. Here <See Post  #93> the cloud band is built up of scalloped lines. In heraldry they are either engrailed or invected, depending on their orientation. An engrailed cross has the points out.
  
  Alternatives to the cloud band motif might be solar, based on indented and rayonny lines, or painted with radiating golden rays, or rising from a blue pool. And in some illustrations, the artist created combinations of these motifs.
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Appearance is widely varied. It is 'function' or identity that is consistent. Whatever the artistic rendering, it is always a cosmic boundary based on historical tradition and on its function in the illustration. The first illustration above is clearly a cosmic boundary combined of scalloped lines and rays. VMs has a very similar structure but was painted differently. The question is, what is the VMs cosmic boundary doing there, if that is what it is?

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 12:59 PM

  (26-11-2024, 04:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (26-11-2024, 02:55 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the whole the patterns that you refer to here don't seem that similar to me anyway to what we see in the Voynich illustration.

  
  Not that similar? What do you expect exactly? Which examples are better?

  
  I am working on a paper on the representation of water in Medieval maps with many examples from contemporary sources which I hope to have ready soon. Both the blue and wavy lines that we see on the Rosettes folio fit with the style of representation of the time particularly in the region I associate with the Voynich manuscript, northern Italy. Also hashing is often used to show where sea or rivers meet land.
  
  Just look at the most famous Italian map of the 15th century, the Fra Mauro map, and what do you see blue and white wavy lines representing water and distributed  distinctly drawn buildings just as we see in the Voynich. The fact that areas covered by the blue and white wavy lines are of different sizes and shapes on the Rosettes folio are very consistent with the representation of different sizes and shapes of bodies of water.
  
  If you only look for similarity in images that fit your theory then you could be guilty of confirmation bias.
  
  So, yes, I would say that your example is not that similar. Do you have other examples?
  
  In your example we do not see the consistent pattern that we see through the Rosettes folio of blue followed by white wavy lines. Your example doesn't show hashing next to the blue and wavy lines like we see on the Rosettes folio, but rather much longer thinner rays. The semi-circular curves are much smaller proportionately than we see on the Rosettes folio. I have not dwelled too much before on this question as I am conscious that the simple geometric nature of the shapes that we are discussing might allow for multiple similar matches.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 01:30 PM

  Hear are a few examples of map waves and hashing:
  
  There are 4 examples showing hashing where water meets land. And there are 4 examples showing water represented by blue and wavy lines. I will try to find highest resolution versions of these images when I can.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 01:50 PM

  The point of evidence like this is that it is cumulative. The distinctly drawn distributed buildings and the illustration of water and the drawing of mountain slopes all together as well as other features which appear geographical, like the T/O map in the corner, add up to the idea that the page represents a map. I would be fascinated to see a medieval document that has these core geographical features and is not a map.
  
  I suspect that the cause of the 3x3 large circle representation of the page is unique to this map, but there are a number of original maps of the period in Italy with their own unique features. Although, the representing of specific locations on circles we see on other maps.
  
  The Rosettes causeways are reminiscent of Matthew Paris map from London to Jerusalem.
  
  So, putting all the evidence together I am personally pretty confident that the page is a map. Ultimately time will tell when eventually the Voynich is deciphered what this page represents and who is right and who is wrong on this matter.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 02:02 PM

  Frankly, if one asks the question:
  
  What is the probability that a medieval document, with distinct drawn distributed buildings on it, is a map I would say that it has the be very close to 1? If we were to do an experiment and collect all the medieval documents with distinctly drawn distributed buildings and calculate what proportion of them were maps of some kind I think we would find that proportion was near to absolute certainty. And given that maps overall constitute a small proportion of medieval documents the correlation seems clear.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 03:51 PM

  Here is another map image:

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Koen G > 10-12-2024, 04:04 PM

  Did you notice that on the Rosettes, the order is object-scallops-rays and not object-rays-scallops? Just like in the luminous cloud picture I posted.

• RE: Rosettes and Revelations Pt.1: The Holy City - Koen Gheuens and Cary Rapaport

  Mark Knowles > 10-12-2024, 04:24 PM

  (10-12-2024, 04:04 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Did you notice that on the Rosettes, the order is object-scallops-rays and not object-rays-scallops? Just like in the luminous cloud picture I posted.

  
  And so what do you conclude from that? Are you suggesting that this is different on the maps? The hashing maps the external and water boundary just as on the maps. The "rays" on your illustration cover the "scallops" whereas in the Rosettes folio the "hashing", as I say it is, is next to the "waves", as I describe them, not covering them.
  
  Mathematically there is no way to prove which images are more similar or calculate the extent of similarities, but in my opinion the waves interpretation is clearly the better one. Then this could be confirmation bias on my part or confirmation bias on your part or confirmation bias on both of our parts. That we both like all other researchers suffer from some degree of confirmation bias is the most likely scenario.
  
  Still, the cumulative evidence that the page is some kind of map is nevertheless very strong in my opinion having studied the page in minute detail.
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