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A case for Gibberish
- A case for Gibberish
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RE: A case for Gibberish
ReneZ > 27-09-2020, 12:30 PM
Anton's point is one on the list of points against gibberish. For me, none of these points are conclusive, as I already mentioned before. -
RE: A case for Gibberish
aStobbart > 27-09-2020, 04:50 PM
(26-09-2020, 07:26 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(26-09-2020, 06:11 PM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
For 600 Ducats I would write gibberish all month long 
... a hundred and fifty years later...?
Well, we don't really know for sure if Rudolf was the first to pay for the VMs -
RE: A case for Gibberish
Anton > 27-09-2020, 04:52 PM
(27-09-2020, 04:50 PM)aStobbart Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, we don't really know for sure if Rudolf was the first to pay for the VMs
The point is that the MS was created unbound and partly unpainted, and this kind of product is not really one that's prepared for sale.
BTW, we're not sure that Rudolf ever paid for it. -
RE: A case for Gibberish
aStobbart > 27-09-2020, 04:59 PM
(27-09-2020, 04:52 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-09-2020, 04:50 PM)aStobbart Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well, we don't really know for sure if Rudolf was the first to pay for the VMs
The point is that the MS was created unbound and partly unpainted
Yes, I agree, that means we can't be sure about the order of the folios, nor the amount of folios missing, or the overall presentation (was the Vms supposed to be a part of several volumes? Or maybe each folio should be treated as a single "unit" )
(27-09-2020, 04:52 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.and this kind of product is not really one that's prepared for sale.
Maybe it was a draft for an original that was lost or never written. This is ofc not an idea of my own, others have pointed it out before. This topic only creates more questions
(27-09-2020, 04:52 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.BTW, we're not sure that Rudolf ever paid for it.
Is there a scenario were the VMs ends in Rudolf's possesion with no money transaction involved? I'd like to hear about it -
RE: A case for Gibberish
Anton > 27-09-2020, 06:57 PM
(27-09-2020, 04:59 PM)aStobbart Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is there a scenario were the VMs ends in Rudolf's possesion with no money transaction involved? I'd like to hear about it
No, I mean that the very Rudolf's possession of the VMS is questionable - this pops up only on double hearsay: Marci told Kircher that Mnisovsky told him that... So we have to trust them both. -
RE: A case for Gibberish
Helmut Winkler > 28-09-2020, 08:35 AM
Even if the ms. was in Rudolfs possession (something I am not sure of) we can't be sure he paid for it, there is no evidene and it seems there were cases whwn he did not pay for things -
RE: A case for Gibberish
ReneZ > 28-09-2020, 11:00 AM
We cannot be entirely sure that he 'acquired' it (this leaves open the possibility that he never actually paid).
Calling it questionable is probably too strong. The available evidence is quite reliable by itself. There is no particular reason to doubt it. It is not in contradiction with anything, and in fact it fits quite well with the known ownership by Jacobus de Tepenec some time between 1608 and 1622.
That he was bad at paying people for items or services that he obtained is certainly true, and well documented.
Here is a nice list of his debts after his death:
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This is not necessarily complete. -
RE: A case for Gibberish
Anton > 28-09-2020, 12:12 PM
Yes, of course, of all imaginable options this one (Rudolf's possession) is currenty predominant, because at least there is some evidence, and nothing contradicts it. That is, at least we know something about it. About possession by other pre-Tepenec people nothing has been known at all. -
RE: A case for Gibberish
RenegadeHealer > 28-09-2020, 02:16 PM
Anton Wrote:and this kind of product is not really one that's prepared for sale.
Everything I know about the medieval book industry I've learned here. I seem to remember someone once writing that when someone wanted a copy of a book, he would take the original to a scriptorium and commission a copy made, and the finished copy was typically received unbound, along with the returned (bound or unbound) original. I assume someone who contracted the copying of a book was responsible for both materials and labor, and bookbindings were neither materials nor labor that most scriptoria worked with. If he wanted it bound, the commissioner would have to take the finished copy to a bookbinder, and contract this job separately.
So if all of the above was typically true, technically books were "sold unbound", when they were commissioned copies of other books made by scriptoria. The sale was from the scriptorium to the commissioner. But what I'm not sure about, was how commonly an unbound book typically changed hands for money in any other instances. Can anyone else weigh in on this?
aStobbart Wrote:Maybe it was a draft for an original that was lost or never written. This is ofc not an idea of my own, others have pointed it out before.
It strikes me that this could actually support the gibberish hypothesis. I'm picturing a writing project where a preliminary (and possibly discreet) copy of a planned work was first made with rough sketches of the illustrations and *Lorem ipsum* type greeking. Perhaps the commissioner was cagey or undecided about the contents of the text, but was testing the layout. This might also explain the crudeness of the illustrations and the pages that seem unfinished. This feels anachronistic to me, because materials and labor for creating books were not cheap. Is there any medieval precedent for this kind of preliminary rough copy being made?
aStobbart Wrote:Is there a scenario were the VMs ends in Rudolf's possesion with no money transaction involved? I'd like to hear about it
Paul Weiler, in his book The Incredible Unravelling of the Voynich Manuscript, posits that Holy Roman Emperor Frederick III is the author. He was Rudolf's great-grandfather. Paul posits that the VMs languished in some personal library of the Habsburgs until Rudolf came across it and was intrigued. By that point in time Frederick III was remembered as a bit of a nutter. Rudolf wanted to know what the book said, but he was a bit ashamed of it too, for its provocative and bizarre illustrations and its connection to his infamous ancestor. So before handing it over to his scribes to attempt decipherment, he stripped it of all clear references to the Habsburg family, and made up a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. story about having bought it from someone unidentified. This would explain:- The lack of a record of having paid 600 ducats, despite Rudolf's court's scrupulous bookkeeping
- The presence of the "à Tepencz" signature
- The frustrating lack of anything in the illustrations that definitively refer to a particular person or family
- The missing folios
- The strange trimmings of certain folios. (For example, was there originally another top line of text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. which would have identified the creator? This would have been typical for a colophon.)
- The apparent chemical wiping and obliteration seen on some folios. I'm thinking particularly the upper right corner of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- The lack of a record of having paid 600 ducats, despite Rudolf's court's scrupulous bookkeeping
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RE: A case for Gibberish
MichelleL11 > 28-09-2020, 07:33 PM
/(28-09-2020, 02:16 PM)RenegadeHealer Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is there any medieval precedent for this kind of preliminary rough copy being made?
Hi, RenegadeHealer:
In this string l linked an example of a medieval author that made multiple copies of his book and sent them out to friends, taking their comments into account before completing the final draft, l believe.
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So drafts are not completely unheard of.