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• No text, but a visual code

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  ololololo > 28-08-2026, 11:28 PM

  Oh, I forgot about 1580. But nevertheless, there are some similarities between them.
  These were my free‑form reflections in favor of Antonio’s version  Nevertheless, no matter how much I criticized his communication style, I believe it’s worth developing his ideas, as they are, in some respects, truly worthwhile.
  One way or another, VMS, like Book of Soyga, are unique works, and if they had a counterpart, it has not survived. 
  Another similarity, which I would call “conceptual,” is that the purpose of the book is unclear. The tables with letters and the intricate writing system — we can understand how they were created, but why they were created remains a great mystery.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 29-08-2026, 09:11 AM

  Rafal, in Spanish we have a saying: there is none so blind as he who will not see.
  
     The object drawn in the lower-left section of the Rosettes is a small, incomplete volvelle, and anyone knowledgeable about medieval astronomy and astrology will recognize it immediately.
  
     In the Middle Ages, one could calculate the time using a volvelle, but one could not measure the passage of time with it because it was not a clock. The same thing probably happened to you as to Brumbaugh, who mistook the drawing for a clock, believing one of the hands to be a minute hand. But the minute hand wasn't invented until the 17th century. It is neither a sigil—since the Voynich is not a grimoire—nor a meaningless ornament.
  
     I have explained that on that small dial there are 360 markings corresponding to 24 hours—comparable to a clock face—but what distinguishes the drawing as a volvelle is the inner triangle, representing an astrological aspect formed by the sun and the moon. I have also explained that this same shape appears on another page of the Voynich manuscript, f67v2.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  ololololo > 29-08-2026, 11:13 AM

  Antonio, here are some examples I found
     
     
     
  There is actually a resemblance, but at the moment it’s only general. In the center of the volvelle, the Sun or the Moon is usually depicted. I don’t quite understand yet what the three dots in the form of a triangle might mean (in the last example, which is somewhat similar to the figure from the Rosetta Stone, there are four dots).

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Rafal > 29-08-2026, 12:17 PM

  Quote:and anyone knowledgeable about medieval astronomy and astrology will recognize it immediately.

  
  Sorry Antonio but this is a manipulation.
  
  You claim there would be some universal consensus among all "experts" while you have never done such a poll.
  You also set a subtle trap - if I don't agree with you then I am just incompetent.
  And then I have to struggle and prove that I am somehow competent while you made your claims without proving anything.
  
  I am not going for it, try your tricks with someone else 
  
  By the way, I agree it is rather not a working clock. The 24 marks which would in theory make hours are set not equally but in groups of three ones. But this argument works against volvelle as well.
  
  For me it could be some symbol, maybe actually meaning trine as you say. But not a realistic, working volvelle.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 29-08-2026, 02:52 PM

  Look, Rafal, it’s very simple: if you don’t want me to manipulate you, stop reading this thread and you’ll spare yourself my tricks.
  
     It is not a conventional volvelle, but rather an incomplete sketch with a clearly astrological purpose. The groups of three marks are drawn on the sphere exactly where astrological aspects are formed, and this is what anyone knowledgeable about astrology will recognize. The main astrological aspects between the Sun and the Moon are the conjunction, sextile, square, trine, and opposition. And all of them are formed at the locations marked.
  
     In the small drawing of the Rosettes, we see the formation of a trine between the Sun and the Moon—an aspect considered astrologically positive—which is very likely a reference to the harmony of the Rosettes' spheres.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Linda > 29-08-2026, 03:27 PM

  (29-08-2026, 11:13 AM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Antonio, here are some examples I found
  
  There is actually a resemblance, but at the moment it’s only general. In the center of the volvelle, the Sun or the Moon is usually depicted. I don’t quite understand yet what the three dots in the form of a triangle might mean (in the last example, which is somewhat similar to the figure from the Rosetta Stone, there are four dots).

  
  The De Sacro Bosco example seems to fit, with 8 groups of three. The two lines joined at the middle could reference the turning piece. I don't know about the one sun and two moons idea though, I don't understand yet about trines etc.
  
  This one wasn't explained as to how it works where I found it other than it is an eclipse volvelle to find out if you would see it at your latitude.  
  
  

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 29-08-2026, 06:15 PM

  Linda, the images you and ololololo posted don't help explain the matter. A volvelle showing astrological aspects, like this one, is necessary.
  
    You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
     Here, within the inner circle and represented by symbols, you can see the astrological aspects—angular distances between the Sun and the Moon that are significant from an astrological perspective. The asterisk represents 60°, the square 90°, the triangle 120°, and the two joined circles 180°. On the volvelle I have displayed, you can see that the sun and the moon—marked by their respective tabs or arrows—form a right angle, which is why a square is drawn there.
  
      What we see, then, in the sketch of the Rosettes volvelle is a triangle, where the moon is represented twice because its angular distance from the sun is measured in both hemispheres.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Linda > 29-08-2026, 06:32 PM

  It was the closest I had seen, with the possibility of being timely. I think you would need to find a non printed version. Most i had seen had the zodiac on the outside, separated into three, which didn't match your volvelle layout.
  
  Yours is 'Instrument-maker Gemma Frisius devised a volvelle for inclusion in Peter Apianus' 1524, Cosmographia'
  
  Gemma was then 16 years old. 
  
  Here is one that's not printed, although it might be late too, the eclipses start in 1460.
  
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 29-08-2026, 07:40 PM

  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
    This other volvelle appears in a 15th-century manuscript. The sextile is represented by a different symbol, whereas the trine is depicted as a triangle—the standard representation for this astrological aspect.
  
     The zodiac is indeed not depicted in the volvelle sketch from the Rosettes foldout, but that is not particularly important. What is truly significant is that, at the center of that small sphere marked with 360 degrees or 24 hours, we can see a representation of a trine.
  
     Please, before replying, it is advisable to read up a little on the basics of astrology so you can understand what I am talking about.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Linda > 30-08-2026, 07:17 PM

  (29-08-2026, 07:40 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  
    This other volvelle appears in a 15th-century manuscript. The sextile is represented by a different symbol, whereas the trine is depicted as a triangle—the standard representation for this astrological aspect.
  
     The zodiac is indeed not depicted in the volvelle sketch from the Rosettes foldout, but that is not particularly important. What is truly significant is that, at the center of that small sphere marked with 360 degrees or 24 hours, we can see a representation of a trine.
  
     Please, before replying, it is advisable to read up a little on the basics of astrology so you can understand what I am talking about.

  
  I understand you are looking for representations of the aspects, I realize that on the earlier ones I posted you have to calculate them, but they are still there. Your latest example says it is from 1491, so i find that again to be too late. I am having trouble finding anything earlier where they are specifically shown, although the trine and other glyphs seem well established much earlier, in tables at least, for example here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I found this, which is even earlier, not a volvelle, and without the glyphs. 
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Also the 1424 Ashmole 370 volvelle, which like many other earlier volvelles, does not show the fanning of the aspects, but does still show a sun and two moons (one of the moons shows the phases, the other is one of the pointers, the sun is the other) which together calculate the aspects. 
  
  I could accept your description of what it is, but it is still somewhat problematic in terms of precedents and in why it would only show the trine example, on its own it does not call into mind the aspectarium tradition, even if it did start earlier. However, an off center set of pointers might call such a thing into mind. 
  
  Also, how does it relate to the diagram as a whole, since if it is an exploded form of concentric plantary spheres; it is nowhere near the moon rosette, not sure where the sun rosette is, or whether the two suns are involved.  i.e. what message is its placement sending in this format, other than basically being an astronomical happy face? Perhaps it suggests all of it is in motion, and in this format of exploded celectial spheres, much of it is in trine position?
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