20-03-2026, 09:31 PM
Sorry, R. Sale, as I said, I was also sharing updates of my study and not all of what I said was directly relating to your post (such as the point about the planets), but that topic could be used as an example regarding your statement "absence of information."
The "fire" I mentioned regarding the Oxford MS 164 (the red ring), not the MS 565 or 1082.
I did not deny the possibility of the VM authors having seen an earlier version of the MS 565 (also with the 43 'undulations'). I am not in a position to say there is only and only VM or Shirakatsi who found significance in the number 43 to draw their charts (another chart on the VM has 45 supposed crescents circling the chart). Coincidences can be misleading as well. Besides, you cannot claim that an earlier edition with such features (even the 43 loops) had not existed in 1300s. Just because it is not extant, it does not mean it did not exist, given there must have been many scribal copies of that work circulating for a long while. That is the point I was making.
"It's simply a matter that history provides no other equivalent," is a very very big claim to make, R. Sale. Is there an all-inclusive archive of everything produced in history somewhere? Are you claiming that everything produced in history has been preserved somewhere for us to judge that statement? I just copied you the Oxford MS images (which you seem not have taken seriously or as relevant). Why other copies could not have existed that you and I do not know about?
I have no problem with Shirakatsi's diagrams having travelled and even seen by the VM authors. All I was saying was that just because there is a similarity does not mean they even have same meaning. The flip of the direction for your is just a flip, even good and evil meanings could matter. For me, it can mean much more in an astrological chart, given established conventions about directions of the wheel.
Overall, I thank you for this conversation and think it is best that we rest this topic as our views have been expressed.
Having shared the material I did today (especially the broader material not related to R. Sale), it is now possible for me to consider that some of the basics I wished to share in this forum have been shared and there is no reason for me to take more of your time. As I had said, I was not planning to be around here for too long. Best wishes to all of you for finding your answers. If I ever find the time to share more, I will just do it through my site.
Take care you all.
The "fire" I mentioned regarding the Oxford MS 164 (the red ring), not the MS 565 or 1082.
I did not deny the possibility of the VM authors having seen an earlier version of the MS 565 (also with the 43 'undulations'). I am not in a position to say there is only and only VM or Shirakatsi who found significance in the number 43 to draw their charts (another chart on the VM has 45 supposed crescents circling the chart). Coincidences can be misleading as well. Besides, you cannot claim that an earlier edition with such features (even the 43 loops) had not existed in 1300s. Just because it is not extant, it does not mean it did not exist, given there must have been many scribal copies of that work circulating for a long while. That is the point I was making.
"It's simply a matter that history provides no other equivalent," is a very very big claim to make, R. Sale. Is there an all-inclusive archive of everything produced in history somewhere? Are you claiming that everything produced in history has been preserved somewhere for us to judge that statement? I just copied you the Oxford MS images (which you seem not have taken seriously or as relevant). Why other copies could not have existed that you and I do not know about?
I have no problem with Shirakatsi's diagrams having travelled and even seen by the VM authors. All I was saying was that just because there is a similarity does not mean they even have same meaning. The flip of the direction for your is just a flip, even good and evil meanings could matter. For me, it can mean much more in an astrological chart, given established conventions about directions of the wheel.
Overall, I thank you for this conversation and think it is best that we rest this topic as our views have been expressed.
Having shared the material I did today (especially the broader material not related to R. Sale), it is now possible for me to consider that some of the basics I wished to share in this forum have been shared and there is no reason for me to take more of your time. As I had said, I was not planning to be around here for too long. Best wishes to all of you for finding your answers. If I ever find the time to share more, I will just do it through my site.
Take care you all.