12-08-2020, 04:06 PM
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2020, 04:19 PM by Ahmet Ardıç.)
(12-08-2020, 06:29 AM)ReneZ wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-08-2020, 06:40 PM)Ahmet Ardıç wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.British Museum related questions:
1- Why did this museum not want to buy much older manuscripts (which parts are only/unique in the world) from Voynich's catalog instead of buying only 137 parts (which mostly printed and some of tham not much valuable works such as a print palimpsest) such as ordinary and particularly valuable works?
2- If this deal was made in 1902 and only 137 pieces of artifacts changed hands, why did this whole list (Voynich-written list-book) stamped by British Museum in 1901 with their seal?
[You can see this BM 1901 seal on the page of this source Source: A First (-Ninth) list of books offered for sale. {With “A First list of books, second edition”, “A Supplement to the Eight list”, and “Index of books contained in List I-VI.”} London 1898-1902 / Author: Voynich, Wilfred Michael, / The British Library System Number is 003818912 / Shelfmark S.C. 1097.]
3- British Library has this list book which has been sealed by British Museum in 1901 with their ‘year-1901-seal’. Why the BM sealed whole list? If BM was bought some of these books why they sealed whole this list book?
4- I visited this library for my research a while ago; I would not be able to see this list-book written by Voynich without permission. I have never been able to reach the original paper book. After a while, I was able to see the photo film of this work because the officer wanted to help by taking initiative on herself (without having a special permit before). Then I saw the 1901 and 1902 BM seals on this photo film of the book. In your opinion, myself as a member reader of this library, why I can physically examine a manuscript older than a thousand years old, but I can't see & examine an ordinary paper book written in 1901 itself ? And why I can see the photo picture of it only after if I will get a special permission? Do you think this situation is normal?
5- Most of The rare books and manuscripts were listed by Voynich in his catalogue books were sold by Voynich or by his wife in time. Some of the list-books written by Voynich, (which has short-descriptions of about 12,700 to 13250 rare books, and let’s say about 13000 rare books and manuscripts) were listed in these list-books.
Dear Ahmet,
please note that:
- Voynich was dealing with early printed books (including incunabula) most of his life, and only ventured into deailing in manuscripts much later. His early catalogues are mostly filled with printed books. There is hopefully a very informative talk about this in the UK in the coming months, but this is depending on Corona progress.
- The 137 books in question were special in the sense that they were all unique. At the time there was no other known copy of them. Voynich asked too much money for them, and the BM wasn't going to buy. In the end some rich clients decided to buy them and donate them to the library
- The so-called eighth list of books that included this lot was printed in June 1902, but there are several other 'lists of books' and 'catalogues' (two different series) printed by him in all years around that time.
That should answer the first three points.
I have actually been fortunate enough to see the 137 in the stacks of the BL a few years ago. They will not help us to understand the mysteries of the Voynich MS.
Indeed, there are many unknown details throughout his life, but there is also an enormous amount known about him, that has been unearthed by professional researchers, academics, journalist who have access to sources not available to the 'common people like us'. A great deal has been written about him, by the likes of Arnold Hunt, Gerry Kennedy, Rafal Prinke, and several more - too many to name.
Arnold Hunt has actually read the diary of Robert Proctor of the BM, which gives details about Voynich's earliest dealings.
Whether Voynich was a liar or not?
Rafal Prinke presented the following quote about Voynich from one of his anti-Russian friends in his early years in London:
"He [Wojnicz] had exuberant phantasy and took its results for reality, in which he solemnly believed. Later he became [...] a very practical antiquarian books dealer and made a considerable fortune, which he was always happy to share with anyone. And so in that man lived in agreement – incredible phantasy (others call it lies), truly American pragmatism and good heart."
See also You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
But I have much (much!) more.
Dear Rene,
The answer of this question is important to me and I haven't fully learned your opinion on this matter. Why did the British Museum seal in 1901 on the full-list-book (in which thousands of rear books and manuscripts were described) if they traded between them in 1902 ? Also, have members of two of the world's wealthiest families sponsored just only 137 books together, but not for the all list when the museum sealed the whole list on that book in about one year before the real deal? Do you think this seems logical? In my opinion, what is told and written on these topics as if they are true may overlap with the existing evidence, but it does not coincide with either corporate behavior requirements and logic.
I don't think there is enough focus on invisible areas, and I strongly believe there is a completely different story in this invisible area. Which documents that didn't want public to see should have been removed.
These subjects are not under investigation about events that happened 500 or 1000 years ago. It has only been about 100 years.
For example, 100 years ago, they have a customs and passport regime in Europe and in the Ottoman Empire. Mr. Voynich traveled to various parts of the world, including many European countries. But, we can not find all entry and exit records in the customs archives of the European states, included between the Siberia to UK travel in 1890. I know there are people who have worked on this subject but they have been able to identify very few of the travel records. Presumably he had passports with two different names at the same time and used them only to go to certain areas.
Why the British Library and Museum and/or other institutions did not share that original paper-book of his written this lists-book and all other related archive papers with researchers? Why they did not scan and share all documents over internet by broadcasting. I think we all as researchers should write together to them and demand it to they do this.
I do not think the British Museum, neither past nor present, was transparent in explaining the source of some artifacts. It is said that there are thousands of historical artifacts in the British Museum warehouses that have not been exhibited yet.
Are we sure that the British Museum has not violated the ethical rules and laws in the past? When we examine the BM history a little, we can see that the name of this institution was referred with on the same page with some "scientific" forgery works together.
Mr. Rene, you as a scientist, speak according to the evidence you can find, of course. Voynich was dealing with not only early printed books and incunabula, but he was dealing with manuscripts too and it was much earlier then known. However according to the current evidence lets say he was dealing mostly with early printed books in early period in his business. Where was the real source of those books? How can we believe that stated past information shared by Voynich?
To summarize that all, it is mathematics, physics, and logic itself that proves to us that the documents shown on these subjects may probably to be partially fabricated and that some "evidence" was manipulated in various ways. Which including that 137 artifacts issue, and for me the history of this person was built based on some historical balloon stories and manipulated documents and of-course concealed and destroyed documents can not help us to understand that VMS story for sure. Otherwise, 100 years have passed only and everything would have been enlightened. So, we will give hints that it could be a completely different story with our own work.
Thank you,
