The Voynich Ninja

(28-04-2016, 10:45 AM)-Job- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you able to translate the 49 words listed on this page:
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Of course, with pleasure, later, when I come home.

The reason that I asked about otol and odaiin is that they are the two most frequent "Voynich stars" (members of the labeled sets of f68r1 and f68r2). For this reason, they at least shoud be expected to be of the same rank, while in your translation one is noun, the other is verb, let alone that there does not seem to be anything in both "spouse" and "perish" which would make them members of a homogenous set.

Your translation of aror could make sense in the context of the last line of f116v, but without the suggested translation of sheey it is hard to decide upon that.

What I mean by "coherent" is:

1) All words in a sentence are translated into the supposed underlay language (i.e. Latin if you claim Latin). No dubious positions remain.
2) Grammar of the underlay language is respected.
3) The translated text is relevant to the context of the page (other translated text in the same page and also imagery).

(28-04-2016, 10:43 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also don't want to be overly critical, and the following comment equally applies to anyone looking for the solution.
As mentioned already before, I think it is important to look also at the 'encryption' step, not only the 'decryption' step.

In the above case it means that, whoever wrote the MS, could have encoded the plain text word 'omnius' as otol , but also nepos and nubens would become otol .

I find that hard to imagine...

Rene, thanks for the feedback.
I'd say that it is more difficult to decipher than to encipher, in this case, of course.
I enciphered a quote in Latin below for a minute with my method and I'm interested in result of its deciphering by anyone. The list of the Voynich characters you can find in my PDF file.

ckol dche ksh dopos tyde tchode dop chs rkchey lteroy 
In the last word the 4th letter is a second type of EVA "r" which I call "R". It means "tor", "ter", tur" or "tione" in my list of characters.

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(28-04-2016, 10:45 AM)-Job- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Are you able to translate the 49 words listed on this page:
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Finally, 49 words (with number of possibilities - in brackets to the right):
shedy – suetum (1)
lchedy – suadum (1)
dchedy – tuitum, taedam (2)
cphedy – eluatum, aliatum, halatum? (3)
chady – artem, artum (2)
chody, chpdy – altum, alitum, votum, alatum, undem (5)
chedyl – judicas (1)
cthedy – emeatum, apiatum (2)
chefy – vectum, auctum (3)
csedy – initum, laetum, lautum, laudem (4)
chkedy – acutum, acitum (2)
chedyr – judicare (1)
chdedy – aditum, editum (2)
ched – aut, vide, aude (3)
chydy – accitum (acitum), acutum (2)
cheody – ventum, velatum, validum, venitum (4)
qchedy – pervadam (1)
chedey – vatium (but mostly is used "vatum"), vitium, videam, audeam (4)
chery – veterum, viderem, auderem  (3)
chey, cheey – viam, avem, avum, aium (4)
ychedy – convitum (1)
cheds – vates, vides, vadis, vitis (4)
rchedy – ravidum, ruidum? (2)
chedo – veto, juto, vito (3)
sheady – it seems, there are different superscripts, so it could be: avidum, avitum, hiatum, cautum
chesy – visum (1)
cheky – vicem, vicum, vagum, aecum (if is not used form "aequum") (4)
chddy – addam (1)
fchedy – possibly, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1)
cheoy, chepy – vanum, vinum, venam (3)
pchedy, ochedy  – novatum, levatum, invitum, invidum, lavatum, ovatum, lividum (7)
tchedy – meatum, beatum, piatum (3)
cheady – juratum, heredum, veritum, viridem, auratum, aeratum (6)
chsdy – istum/am (1)
chtedy – abitum, amatum, umidum, ibidem (4)
chdy – item, idem, udum, atque? (4)
chedl – vetus, aetas, jutus (3)
chedky – judecam (judicam) (1)
chety – humum, hamum (2)
cheda – videre, audere (2)
chetdy – hebetum, jubetum? (2)
cheedy, chedy – vitam, vatu/em, vadum, jutum, autem, aedem
ckhedy – aquatum, equitem (2)
kchedy – quidem, quidam, quitum (3)
? - questionable word.

(28-04-2016, 10:20 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-04-2016, 09:58 AM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1) otol - omnius (neutrum genus), nepos (masculine), nubens (fem., mascul., neutr.)
[font=Eva]...[/font]
As for me, the text is enigmatic and strange, but coherent in the whole manuscript.

I've long said that the abbreviation shapes are traditional Latin but that the meaning behind them may not be.

You have to ask yourself, if it can be this many interpretations, is the person choosing the interpretation the one who is creating coherency in the manuscript?

Let's say in English you have the common endings -ing -able -ly or -ed. If you add a few letters in front of them, many will become real words.


I'm afraid I don't see coherency yet (I'm willing to keep looking and to keep an open mind about this)...

As I mentioned, folio 1v has been translated into a dozen disjointed unrelated subjects with no consistent or coherent (or even note-form) grammar other than those we human beings "fill in" with our minds when we see familiar words. How many of the abbreviation+more-letters combinations look like words because the expansion of the abbreviations is already providing the foundation for a word so that anything you add to it with a basic vowel-consonant balance has a good chance of matching some word in Latin?


I'm not posing these questions to be argumentative. These are things we all have to ask ourselves when we have something the LOOKS like words but which otherwise doesn't make a lot of sense and which requires alternatives for many of the word-glyphs in order to try to make sense of it.

It is not so easy to answer all these questions, I'll  also be brief.
First of all, those characters or group of characters which I consider Latin abbreviations were detected by me before my study of Latin abbreviations. Only few of them, it seems, three correspond to real Latin abbreviations: y - as prefix (cum, con...) and as conjunction (cum); r - as suffixes (tur, ter, tor); l - as ending s, us; the rest is quite another.
The history with Kircher and his connection to the VMs  is too obscure, so I can say nothing about it.
I'm aware of the problem with number of interpretations, it is pretty big in some cases, but, generally, I think, it must be tried. For example, I take English word "proclamation". We can easily encipher this word in the Voynich cipher. May the ending "tion" will be the Voynich "r", the rest fits without changes.
So, proclamation = qokoter
Possible interpretations in English: proclamation.
The word "name" = ot
Possible interpretations: name, lum, nom, lab, nep. 
There can be many interpretations, but all of them must correspond to the time of writing, general context and supposed region.
In conclusion, I'd say it is bad idea to use Google Translator with Latin. By the way, "tradis" is not a "kiss", it means "you give" or "you pass". I'll try to translate this text myself as much as I can, but, unfortunately, I don't promise correctness. As well, there is a problem with low number of conjunctions and prepositions, but all this I wrote in my work.
You won't know if you don't try yourself. I think this is the best way to check my theory and to make a decision whether it could be or couldn't.

Yulia, does your method also work on plant labels? For example the f 89v foldout? It's the part of the MS I'm most familiar with, so it would be interesting to see what you make of it. Also, it's a good way to test to what extent the text would actually match the imagery. If the labels for a row of plants turn out to translate as "sock, forbid, uncle", it will be clear that there is either no link or an extremely symbolic one

Searcher wrote: It is not so easy to answer all these questions, I'll  also be brief.

First of all, those characters or group of characters which I consider Latin abbreviations were detected by me before my study of Latin abbreviations. Only few of them, it seems, three correspond to real Latin abbreviations: y - as prefix (cum, con...) and as conjunction (cum); r - as suffixes (tur, ter, tor); l - as ending s, us; the rest is quite another.
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There are more than three shapes that correspond to real Latin abbreviations...

• The three Latin abbreviations -ris -tis and -cis are used frequently at the ends of words in the VMS (as they are in Latin), throughout the document. The distinction between -ris and -tis is not always clear in the VMS (although in some places it is) but the distinction between -cis and -tis/-cis is quite clear and distinct.
  
• In Latin, the cap abbreviation is frequently used to represent -er- -ir- -re- -ri- or -r- and is used in a similar way in other languages but means different things in those languages.
  
• The line across/above the letters is sometimes used in the VMS (very infrequently, but it is there).
  
• In a few places the 9 is superscripted (whether by the main hand or another hand is unclear) which more often in Latin is -os or -us rather than -um, -cum, etc.
  

The glyph you interpreted as – s, us, os, as (l) is not the correct shape in Latin for those abbreviations.

The glyph you interpreted as - s, is, as, es, s(o) (EVA-s) is sometimes used to represent con in both Latin and Spanish when it stands alone and in the VMS, this shape frequently stands alone. In other words, it frequently has a different meaning in Latin when it is alone compared to when it is part of other words.





Searcher wrote: In conclusion, I'd say it is bad idea to use Google Translator with Latin.

I don't use Google translate for translations. I do occasionally use it for a quick scan.


Searcher wrote: You won't know if you don't try yourself. I think this is the best way to check my theory and to make a decision whether it could be or couldn't.

I have tried by myself. I've known these Latin abbreviations for years. I have blogged about them and mentioned them frequently on the forum. Years ago I tried expanding them to create a Latin translation but the STRUCTURE of the VMS "grammar" and the construction of the words is not consistent with Latin conventions.


Here is what I feel is one of the essential tenets of the VMS that is overlooked by many trying to decode it... even if the letter frequency can be interpreted to be similar to Latin (or other languages), the POSITION of the glyphs in the words is very specific and not consistent with natural language. There's no question that the shapes in the VMS are Latin abbreviation shapes that are positionally similar (intentionally so), but that does not mean the intervening text follows natural language patterns for frequency when you also consider the rigidity of the position of the letter-shapes.

The same abbreviations concepts/shapes can be applied to other languages or, alternately, the same shapes can be used for other purposes with the result that the text LOOKS like Latin without necessarily being Latin.

(28-04-2016, 10:21 PM)-JKP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There are more than three shapes that correspond to real Latin abbreviations...

• The three Latin abbreviations -ris -tis and -cis are used frequently at the ends of words in the VMS (as they are in Latin), throughout the document. The distinction between -ris and -tis is not always clear in the VMS (although in some places it is) but the distinction between -cis and -tis/-cis is quite clear and distinct.
  
• In Latin, the cap abbreviation is frequently used to represent -er- -ir- -re- -ri- or -r- and is used in a similar way in other languages but means different things in those languages.
  
• The line across/above the letters is sometimes used in the VMS (very infrequently, but it is there).
  
• In a few places the 9 is superscripted (whether by the main hand or another hand is unclear) which more often in Latin is -os or -us rather than -um, -cum, etc.
  

The glyph you interpreted as – s, us, os, as (l) is not the correct shape in Latin for those abbreviations.

The glyph you interpreted as - s, is, as, es, s(o) (EVA-s) is sometimes used to represent con in both Latin and Spanish when it stands alone and in the VMS, this shape frequently stands alone. In other words, it frequently has a different meaning in Latin when it is alone compared to when it is part of other words.

Searcher wrote: You won't know if you don't try yourself. I think this is the best way to check my theory and to make a decision whether it could be or couldn't.

I have tried by myself. I've known these Latin abbreviations for years. I have blogged about them and mentioned them frequently on the forum. Years ago I tried expanding them to create a Latin translation but the STRUCTURE of the VMS "grammar" and the construction of the words is not consistent with Latin conventions.


Here is what I feel is one of the essential tenets of the VMS that is overlooked by many trying to decode it... even if the letter frequency can be interpreted to be similar to Latin (or other languages), the POSITION of the glyphs in the words is very specific and not consistent with natural language. There's no question that the shapes in the VMS are Latin abbreviation shapes that are positionally similar (intentionally so), but that does not mean the intervening text follows natural language patterns for frequency when you also consider the rigidity of the position of the letter-shapes.

The same abbreviations concepts/shapes can be applied to other languages or, alternately, the same shapes can be used for other purposes with the result that the text LOOKS like Latin without necessarily being Latin.

Actually, I meant not abbreviations themself, but their meaning. Yes, there are many characters which look likewise usual Latin abbreviation, but signify another abbreviations, as I think. y in the end of a word replaces -um, -am, -em, but not -os or -us as in Latin abbreviations. It seems not to be necessary to coincidence with real meanings. Only principle of abbreviations is common for usual Latin texts and the VMs text. Perhaps, some endings in my interpretation are incorrect, so I'll be glad to know what is correct  in specific cases. I chose -um/-am/-em for the ending y as it is most freguent ending in the manuscript, on my opinion, it can't be -us or -os.
As well, I mean trying and checking of my own theory with my method to see what result you will get. Maybe, I missed something, therefore I need a good inspector.

In addition, what do you (any member)  think about my interpretation of the first paragraph on the f1r:

Fer eum, si cum cras ratione commeritorum
Chaos temporum aperies cum genitore.
Compositum sonorum accurare oro,
cum graditur, apertorem hortor
Notas (latior) aperire apertura
De rebus, scrutatator1, caecum, oro
Concreturum compote vaporiarum
habeas, de ratione rotarum
sequi tenturum in pium luminar,
horoscopum habiturire de rotarum
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.

1 – scrutatator  –  scrutator (nomen).

As well, the first paragraph on the f86v3:

Beatum  procatum1
perlaetam pronoeam
re rotarum os inviem
procreaturum solidatum
cuneatum perlevem
opertiore velatum
commeritatem parum
certarum peritarum
commeritarum,
commeritarum,
commeritarum
ratione rara comperiar
rudus concreturum
proitum3 pro re rotarum
cambium4 ratione rotarum
rore rudus concieam
properaturam ideam
como-evenire commeritatem
libertatem  comperatam
traditibus suis rutorum
hubique5 concretorum
concreturum iterare
ratione rotarum
sortitum commeriturum
comperilem6 lituum
diverse traditione
commeritas sonare
ruditatem nimium opertare

1 – procatum – provocatum, procitum, obsecratio.
2 – pronoea – providentia.
3 – proitum – praeitum (v. l.).
4 – cambium – in English – exchange.
5 – hubique – ubique (v. l.).
6 – comperilem – possibly, comparilem.
? – a questionable word.
* - I couldn't find an exact and clear interpretation for these words, I consider them two-in-one words for now and leave them in the present state.

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(28-04-2016, 08:52 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Yulia, does your method also work on plant labels? For example the f 89v foldout? It's the part of the MS I'm most familiar with, so it would be interesting to see what you make of it. Also, it's a good way to test to what extent the text would actually match the imagery. If the labels for a row of plants turn out to translate as "sock, forbid, uncle", it will be clear that there is either no link or an extremely symbolic one

Koen and Anton!
I don't know what to do with the labels of stars and plants. If it is in Latin, it seems they can't be names of those: too different endings between words in a group of labels. I can't interprete some of them for now. After all, I assume that they are sentences written in such way to play role of labels.
My quick decoding of the upper row of label on the f89+:
Inclusum et ........ium? (perhaps, two words-in-one) alienatur libratione (operatione) errandum (rorandum, retornatum) incaveam? pergens lustratos oppositum ratione rara alteratorum intentorum tensum lineales rotas est-ros (sors?) natorum (notarum, latorum) luens in favore

Perhaps, it must be represented separately, if it is just a beginning of the text of every page. For example, part "Inclusum et ........ium? (perhaps, two words-in-one) alienatur libratione (operatione) errandum (rorandum, retornatum)" may be beginning of the text below it. I didn't check it yet. Pittance of time.

Anton, "retornare vivam" = I will live to return, "retornare novam" = may I renovate to return, "retornare ineam" = may I enter (begin) to return"

(28-04-2016, 11:41 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
As well, I mean trying and checking of my own theory with my method to see what result you will get. Maybe, I missed something, therefore I need a good inspector.

In addition, what do you (any member)  think about my interpretation of the first paragraph on the f1r:

Fer eum, si cum cras ratione commeritorum
Chaos temporum aperies cum genitore.
Compositum sonorum accurare oro,
cum graditur, apertorem hortor
Notas (latior) aperire apertura
De rebus, scrutatator1, caecum, oro
Concreturum compote vaporiarum
habeas, de ratione rotarum
sequi tenturum in pium luminar,
horoscopum habiturire de rotarum
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.

1 – scrutatator  –  scrutator (nomen).

....

Searcher, since you're looking for feedback, I took your first paragraph translation and fitted it as best I could (a bit of a challenge since the words are expanded to different lengths) to the VMS folio 1r so it's easier for researchers to see and evaluate it:

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I'm curious to see david's opinion on the Latin.

(29-04-2016, 03:12 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(28-04-2016, 11:41 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
As well, I mean trying and checking of my own theory with my method to see what result you will get. Maybe, I missed something, therefore I need a good inspector.

In addition, what do you (any member)  think about my interpretation of the first paragraph on the f1r:

Fer eum, si cum cras ratione commeritorum
Chaos temporum aperies cum genitore.
Compositum sonorum accurare oro,
cum graditur, apertorem hortor
Notas (latior) aperire apertura
De rebus, scrutatator1, caecum, oro
Concreturum compote vaporiarum
habeas, de ratione rotarum
sequi tenturum in pium luminar,
horoscopum habiturire de rotarum
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.

1 – scrutatator  –  scrutator (nomen).

....

Searcher, since you're looking for feedback, I took your first paragraph translation and fitted it as best I could (a bit of a challenge since the words are expanded to different lengths) to the VMS folio 1r so it's easier for researchers to see and evaluate it:

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I'm curious to see david's opinion on the Latin.

100% fitting. Thanks. The last note after it, to the right - contrarie reducam.
In addition: I still have doubt concerning the words "aurora" and "inauratione" as they include a character which differs from usual "a", but, at the same time, it doesn't also look like usual "o". One more problematic place - "scrutatator" (syaiir). I can't decide for sure if this is one word or a few (s y aiir), in the case if there three separate words are presented, it could be read as "si cum You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." likewise "si cum cras" and "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.".

It would be nice to make an English translation for those who are not very proficient in Latin.

daiin = de rotarum = "from the wheel"?