The Voynich Ninja - Discussion of Yulia May's proposed solution

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(30-04-2016, 11:57 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On the plant page (f18v) I was looking at the interpretations for some of the glyphs.

If I'm reading them correctly, you have interpreted the EVA-t (t) as follows:

Line 1: P, ?, b, p
Line 4: p
Line 5: B
Line 6: m, m/nim
Line 8: pl, plet (pleti, mot, moti)
Line 9: nim (pi), p

and the EVA-k (k) as follows:

Line 2: qu, qu, nic
Line 3: leg, leg, c (qu), loqu
Line 4: c, qu, c
Line 5: c, qu
Line 6: n, cret
Line 7: gn (leg), luc
Line 8: cr
Line 9: c (n, l), qu, n
Line 10: gel, cl

I've spaced out the lines a bit so it's easier to read, and given them numbers so they can be referenced:

Not at all, in my interpretation, mentioned characters have such values:
t – m(e), p(e), pp, b(e)
k – c(e), g(e), q
o – o, n(*), l(*), in – prefix and preposition
a - r(*)
For example, the word from the line 8 "ytor": the general base of its interpretation is "cum+p/b/m+o/l/n+tur/tor*/tione", where "cum-" takes the shape of "con-", "can-", "com-" or "cum" depending on the next letter and the word generally. Maybe, it was the reason of the coice of alternates for the characters k and t (con- - before c, g, q; com- or cum- - before m, p, b). The possible alternates for this: completor, commotor, completione, commotione, commentor.
One more example - the word "ykam" from the same line: the base - "cum+c/g/q/k+r*+tus/tas/tis". The possible alternates for it: concretus, congeretis, concertas. K - is quite rare in Latin, especially in the center of the word. Q - always needs a vowel after it ( ch, c) which always is "u".

Searcher, do you have any theories or explanations about why Latin words that were very common in medieval texts, like et est qui modo tunc die ad non sic locus autem in and vel, are not included?

(02-05-2016, 05:31 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher, do you have any theories or explanations about why Latin words that were very common in medieval texts, like et est qui modo tunc die ad non sic locus autem in and vel, are not included?

Using -Job-'s website I made a list of usual Latin prepositions, conjunctions and another frequent words which is used in the VMs.
in = o - 82 times
ad, ut, id = chd - 8 times
et, de, te = d - 51 times (but "et" can easily be hidden in the word as the add-on "-que")
est, si = s - 244 times
vel, vino, vano = cheo, sho - 195 times
die, dei, dii = dsh - 2 times
non = op, sho (sh with "bow" superscript) - 1+++
autem, vitam, vatum = chedy, shdy - 547 times
sic = lk - 1 time
I can't find the words: modo (only modum - 8 times), tunc (only tum, dum - 271 times), qui (only quis - 2 times, quam or quem - 30 times); locus (only locos or logos, or legens - 83 times; loco, logo, lego - 8 times). As well, per (1 time); pro (29 times); a (8 times); solum or sonum (4 times); ante, unde or alte (9 times); apud (1 time); cum (151 times); intra (1 time); inter (many times, but there is a confusion with 2 types of "r"); ob (10 times); penes (4 times); secundum, ultra (4 times); sine (15 times); tenus, dos, dens or deos (117 times); nec (7 times); inque (6 times); ac (2 times); atque, idem, item, udum (152 times); ex (2 times); quod (8 times); omnis (4 times); plus, mos, mens (48 times); minus, manus, munus, malus (28 times) occur in the VMs.
What seems strange to me is low frequency of the prepositions "ad" and "a", "ab".

A count of how many times a shape occurs is not enough. Where it is in a sentence is important. In fact, in the VMS, this is one of the most important considerations (one of the most distinctive properties of the text).

For example,

In Latin, the -ris/-tis/-cis abbreviations (EVA-m, EVA-g) typically are at the ends of words (as in the VMS) but can occur almost anywhere in a sentence. They are usually somewhat spaced out in the sentence in normal Latin but, in the VMS, to take folio 80r, as an example (because it has a lot of text), there are eight that are at the ends of lines, none that are midline. There are some on other pages that are midline, but they still don't fit the same linguistic pattern as Latin, even if it's assumed that this might be poetry (with rhyme at the end).
In Latin, as you've already noticed, the pre- abbreviation is very common, the pro- abbreviation not quite as frequent. In your Latin interpretation, there is a very high percentage of 4o and very few 4—a ratio that is completely different from Latin.

I can list many more examples, but this is why I keep saying the structure of the VMS differs quite significantly from Latin, even if some of the glyph-shapes and their position are obviously derived from Latin.

Given the inconsistency of the interpretation for specific glyphs/glyph combinations, I'm still concerned you may be imposing Latin upon the text rather than letting the text reveal itself.

When the same glyph means -um one time and -us the next time and -em a third time, we need to ask whether you are simply choosing something that works rather than letting the actual meaning of the text lead you to a solution.

I'd rather ask these questions here, on the forum, where you have a friendly audience than see you throw your translation out in the wild before it's ready, or you might get skewered by some of the less friendly detractors.

(02-05-2016, 10:56 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A count of how many times a shape occurs is not enough. Where it is in a sentence is important. In fact, in the VMS, this is one of the most important considerations (one of the most distinctive properties of the text).

For example,

In Latin, the -ris/-tis/-cis abbreviations (EVA-m, EVA-g) typically are at the ends of words (as in the VMS) but can occur almost anywhere in a sentence. They are usually somewhat spaced out in the sentence in normal Latin but, in the VMS, to take folio 80r, as an example (because it has a lot of text), there are eight that are at the ends of lines, none that are midline. There are some on other pages that are midline, but they still don't fit the same linguistic pattern as Latin, even if it's assumed that this might be poetry (with rhyme at the end).

In Latin, as you've already noticed, the pre- abbreviation is very common, the pro- abbreviation not quite as frequent. In your Latin interpretation, there is a very high percentage of 4o and very few 4—a ratio that is completely different from Latin.

I can list many more examples, but this is why I keep saying the structure of the VMS differs quite significantly from Latin, even if some of the glyph-shapes and their position are obviously derived from Latin.

Given the inconsistency of the interpretation for specific glyphs/glyph combinations, I'm still concerned you may be imposing Latin upon the text rather than letting the text reveal itself.

When the same glyph means -um one time and -us the next time and -em a third time, we need to ask whether you are simply choosing something that works rather than letting the actual meaning of the text lead you to a solution.

I'd rather ask these questions here, on the forum, where you have a friendly audience than see you throw your translation out in the wild before it's ready, or you might get skewered by some of the less friendly detractors.

First of all, thanks for your interest. Any critical thought is much better than just ignoring. I see you you really try to figure out my theory.
I agree that abbreviations which usually are in the end of words may mean another in the center of words, there are still many questionable interpretations for me. For example, I still doubt in the interpretation of the glyph "9" in the center of the word, but I can't suggest something else for now.
As for the pro- abbreviations, actually, there is the one abbreviation "per" or "pr" (q - glyph), but the letter "o" is really more frequent than usually, moreover, some words which must correctly be with the prefix "prae-" have "pro-" here. Maybe someone knows regions and time that could be notable for such indications.

"When the same glyph means -um one time and -us the next time and -em a third time, we need to ask whether you are simply choosing something that works rather than letting the actual meaning of the text lead you to a solution."

I wouldn't call this a case in point. In my interpretation for endings:
y - um, am, em
l - us, s, os, as
s - is, es, as

To the point, I've found more suitable word in the first paragraph: imitarere instead of habiturere.
Fer eum, si cum cras ratione commeritorum
Chaos temporum aperies cum genitore.
Compositum sonorum accurare oro,
cum graditur, apertorem hortor
Notas (latior) aperire apertura
De rebus, scrutatator, caecum, oro
Concreturum compote vaporiarum
habeas, de ratione rotarum
sequi tenturum in pium luminar,
horoscopum imitarere de rotarum
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.

The second variant:
Fer eum, si cum cras ratione commeritorum
Chaos temporum aperies cum genitore.
Compositum sonorum accurare oro.
cum graditur, apertorem hortor
Notas (latior) aperire apertura
De rebus, si cum rediditur, caecum, oro
Concreturum compote vaporiarum
habeas, de ratione rotarum
sequi tenturum in pium luminar,
horoscopum imitarere de rotarum
incertarum hora, incertum sortitur-cum
aurora aperturum, inauratione exerturum.

Possible translation:
Receive this, if hereafter, with the way of merits,
You will open chaos of the times by the creator.
I ask you to preserve a composition of sounds.
When it comes, I implore discoverer
To open signs with revelation (to open wider with revelation)
About the world, if when it comes in sight (or: it is translated), I ask:
May you wil know invisible thickening from shadowy.
To follow the way of wheels/ circles to the lucky star
You could represent/imitate Horoscope in terms of
The hour of vicissitude. The indefinite draws lots,
Opening with dawn, releasing (detecting) with gilding ???

Possible variant of the last line:
"venturo aperturum, alienatione exerturum/efferaturum." (opening with the future, releasing (detecting) with the change)

(02-05-2016, 03:50 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(02-05-2016, 05:31 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher, do you have any theories or explanations about why Latin words that were very common in medieval texts, like et est qui modo tunc die ad non sic locus autem in and vel, are not included?

Using -Job-'s website I made a list of usual Latin prepositions, conjunctions and another frequent words which is used in the VMs.
in = o - 82 times
ad, ut, id = chd - 8 times
et, de, te = d - 51 times (but "et" can easily be hidden in the word as the add-on "-que")
est, si = s - 244 times
vel, vino, vano = cheo, sho - 195 times
die, dei, dii = dsh - 2 times
non = op, sho (sh with "bow" superscript) - 1+++
autem, vitam, vatum = chedy, shdy - 547 times
sic = lk - 1 time

(03-05-2016, 06:10 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote pid='3814' dateline='1462200617']

Using -Job-'s website I made a list of usual Latin prepositions, conjunctions and another frequent words which is used in the VMs.
in = o - 82 times
ad, ut, id = chd - 8 times
et, de, te = d - 51 times (but "et" can easily be hidden in the word as the add-on "-que")
est, si = s - 244 times
vel, vino, vano = cheo, sho - 195 times
die, dei, dii = dsh - 2 times
non = op, sho (sh with "bow" superscript) - 1+++
autem, vitam, vatum = chedy, shdy - 547 times
sic = lk - 1 time

Hello Searcher,
here are statistics from a couple of Latin texts, in case you are interested in comparisons.

A 25000 words extract from Pliny's Historia:

779 in
----
180 ad
159 ut
34 id
----
741 et
44 de
----
146 est
50 si
----
18 vel
----
18 die
3 dei
----
188 non
----
83 autem
1 vitam
1 vatum
----
18 sic

A 25000 words extract from the Latin Bible (Vulgata):

1011 in
----
162 ad
109 ut
4 id
----
1544 et
131 te
109 de
----
337 est
61 si
----
3 vino
1 vano
----
43 die
42 dei
----
335 non
----
155 autem
11 vitam
----
29 sic
[/quote]

Thank you, Marco.
I wrote about low number of prepositions and conjunctions in my interpretation, and, of course, I observe the lack of them in the text, when I decipher it. From the other hand, conjunctions, articles and prepositions, primarily, reveal a substitution cipher, for instance, if they are daiin and ol, I think, they could be easily revealed. The conjunction et may be diversified with the similar atque, ac, autem or could be hidden in the words as the add-on -que. Besides, some spaces in the text are unclear, especially in the words beginning with o-glyph, they could be the preposition in. I suppose that some prepositions may be associated with nouns (amotione = a motione).
Example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chdalchdy - likely must be chd alchdy (ad rosidum + the next word collutum) (preposition ad + accusative)
But even in this case, ad is very rare in my deciphering Huh

To me, the resulting Latin text, does not make any sense and
it looks as if we can associate any language in the world exactly the same way,
we do not need Latin for this.

(04-05-2016, 04:05 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To me, the resulting Latin text, does not make any sense and
it looks as if we can associate any language in the world exactly the same way,
we do not need Latin for this.

Maybe not any language (English is a mongrel language and borrows endings from several other languages, including French), but it can certainly work for languages that use a regular set of syllables and regular endings to modify the word. Many languages (particularly the older ones) are constructed that way.

(03-05-2016, 09:50 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... could be the preposition in. I suppose that some prepositions may be associated with nouns (amotione = a motione).
Example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chdalchdy - likely must be chd alchdy (ad rosidum + the next word collutum) (preposition ad + accusative)
But even in this case, ad is very rare in my deciphering

Okay, moving away from individual letters for a moment. Look carefully at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from a more global perspective...

Did you notice that 9 of the 10 word-tokens on the first line end in EVA-y? It would be very unusual for Latin or any natural language to do that. But let's explain it, for the moment, by saying it might be a list. It's possible.
But... did you notice that 5 of the 11 lines end in -ris/-tis/-cis and yet those common Latin abbreviations do not occur midline? That's downright weird for Latin and the explanation that maybe midline words use a different abbreviation (or spelled-out letters) doesn't work because then either 1) there are not enough shapes to make an alphabet or 2) the words midline would be longer... and they're not.
I've already mentioned that 4o (if it means pro-) occurs much too often in relation to 4 (per-). In Latin, per- is frequent and somewhat more common than pro- and yet in the VMS, if you interpret the shapes this way, per- (a very common abbreviation in Latin) happens only rarely.
On the following page (f35r) 62 of the 88 word-tokens end in Eva-y or variations of -ain. How can one account for that degree of rigidity and repetition, and how would you translate that page?

(04-05-2016, 11:28 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(03-05-2016, 09:50 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... could be the preposition in. I suppose that some prepositions may be associated with nouns (amotione = a motione).
Example: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. chdalchdy - likely must be chd alchdy (ad rosidum + the next word collutum) (preposition ad + accusative)
But even in this case, ad is very rare in my deciphering

Quote:Okay, moving away from individual letters for a moment. Look carefully at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from a more global perspective...

Did you notice that 9 of the 10 word-tokens on the first line end in EVA-y? It would be very unusual for Latin or any natural language to do that. But let's explain it, for the moment, by saying it might be a list. It's possible.

But... did you notice that 5 of the 11 lines end in -ris/-tis/-cis and yet those common Latin abbreviations do not occur midline? That's downright weird for Latin and the explanation that maybe midline words use a different abbreviation (or spelled-out letters) doesn't work because then either 1) there are not enough shapes to make an alphabet or 2) the words midline would be longer... and they're not.

I've already mentioned that 4o (if it means pro-) occurs much too often in relation to 4 (per-). In Latin, per- is frequent and somewhat more common than pro- and yet in the VMS, if you interpret the shapes this way, per- (a very common abbreviation in Latin) happens only rarely.

On the following page (f35r) 62 of the 88 word-tokens end in Eva-y or variations of -ain. How can one account for that degree of rigidity and repetition, and how would you translate that page?

Some time ago I answered the question of the endings in the VMs. Maybe, so frequent You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not usual for usual Latin texts, but quite possible. I think, this is only one ending which can be appeared in Latin so frequently.
Quote:
"I think, the most expedient way for many similar repeating in a text is using -um (-am, -em) as it is appeared in majority of Latin words in:
1. neutral nominative,
2. accusative,
3. gerund,
4. supine,
5. verb in the first person, future or subjunctive present times.
[attachment=320]
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
But the better way, I think, is to try to decipher this text, and I will do this as I didn't earlier. It is interesting what I'll get.
I will write later.

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