The Voynich Ninja

(29-03-2019, 01:39 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.text:
[ odain  sh2ky  qorain  chckhey  qokey  lkechy  okeey  otal  chedkaly ]

Too bad it's okal, not otal.

(29-03-2019, 07:46 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The substitutions in Geoffrey's chart are rational.

• For example, I do see substitutions like t/th/d (both hard d and soft d, as in thorn) quite frequently in manuscripts.
  
• Also, k and chi are frequently substituted.
  
• Likewise pi and beta, and not just in Greek, but in numerous languages (psi I'm less sure of).
  

It is one thing to say that these may be occasionally substituted in some languages, but it is quite another thing to freely substitute any of [tau, theta, delta]  by any of [Eva-k, Eva-s, Eva-sh]  and similar for the others.

And even with all this freedom, still every single word in the Greek line:

" ε[ι]πομ[εν]  μυθ[ου]ς  κα'-[ει]ρομ[εν]  ηθ[ο]ς  κα'-τοις  μ[υ]θοις  αυτοις  εχομ[εν]  εβδομ[ε]ς "

requires ad-hoc changes in order to get to:

" OpAm  miths  kOrAm  ithes  kOtis  mtheis  Oteis  OkhAm  hebdAms "

When I see substitutions in manuscripts, they are usually fairly consistent.

I cannot yet judge if this is the case in Geoffrey's examples because I simply can't free up enough time to study it in detail. I would like to, but here it is, 4:00 am and I'm still working on projects that have to be completed before the weekend.

Maybe on Sunday I can sit down and really give it some attention.

" ουκ-ουδεν  αν  [η]μεις  καθαρ'[α]  εθελομ[εν]  αυτες  τι'-[ο]ποιες  εχεις  ου  εθελ'[ει]  οξ[ε]ως "

καθαρ'[α]  as an intensifier seems unnecessary after the already intense [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ουκ-ουδεν. I would suggest considering the alternative [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]καθαρ'[[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]οι] to agree with [η]μεις to give  the meaning " not-at-all (particle) we the pure ones [don't] want those whom you-have not wanted keenly." I am not endorsing the other possible meaning " we, the Cathars..."[/font][/font][/font][/font]

(29-03-2019, 10:25 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 01:39 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.text:
[ odain  sh2ky  qorain  chckhey  qokey  lkechy  okeey  otal  chedkaly ]

Too bad it's okal, not otal.

I will reply to Rene's objections and the other comments, but to begin with I can refute this objection:

It is [otal], not [okal]. Before I even begin to interpret a line, I carefully study each letter of the line on Beinecke's high-resolution photo images. I do not simply rely on the automatic letter identifications on voynichese.com or other sites, because sometimes they are wrong. This is such a case.

Here is the high-resolution photo image of the two words [okeey otal] for comparison. Pay particular attention to the [k] and the [t]:

[attachment=2744]

Notice the angle at which the [k] in [okeey] goes up and down on the top left part of the letter. It is not a loop.

Now look at the same top left part of the letter [t] in [otal]. It is clearly different. The scribe made a loop there. Yes, it is a small loop, but it is a loop. The letter is a [t].

Again, I made this letter identification before I even began to interpret the line in Judaeo-Greek at all. I determine all the letter identifications before I begin to interpret each line.

Geoffrey

(29-03-2019, 01:54 PM)Markus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view." ουκ-ουδεν  αν  [η]μεις  καθαρ'[α]  εθελομ[εν]  αυτες  τι'-[ο]ποιες  εχεις  ου  εθελ'[ει]  οξ[ε]ως "

καθαρ'[α]  as an intensifier seems unnecessary after the already intense [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ουκ-ουδεν. I would suggest considering the alternative [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]καθαρ'[[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]οι] to agree with [η]μεις to give  the meaning " not-at-all (particle) we the pure ones [don't] want those whom you-have not wanted keenly." I am not endorsing the other possible meaning " we, the Cathars..."[/font][/font][/font][/font]

Thank you Markus. I appreciate your assistance with the finer points of the Greek grammar and syntax.

If you have time to study and comment on the Greek grammar and syntax of the second line of the paragraph, I would appreciate that as well. I think it would be very helpful for the discussion we are having here.

Geoffrey

I've created 4 transcripts, so I have looked at every character in the VMS many times.

I'm not convinced it's otal. I think it might be a blobby okal, not a loop. In cases like this, I record it in the transcript with both alternatives and I step away from choosing one or the other.

(29-03-2019, 02:05 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 10:25 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 01:39 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.text:
[ odain  sh2ky  qorain  chckhey  qokey  lkechy  okeey  otal  chedkaly ]

Too bad it's okal, not otal.

I will reply to Rene's objections and the other comments, but to begin with I can refute this objection:

It is [otal], not [okal]. Before I even begin to interpret a line, I carefully study each letter of the line on Beinecke's high-resolution photo images. I do not simply rely on the automatic letter identifications on voynichese.com or other sites, because sometimes they are wrong. This is such a case.

In any case, it is completely to be expected that the Voynich MS text contains the occasional mistake. No solution should ever be rejected for such incidental issues. As long as it is just a few percent...

(29-03-2019, 02:05 PM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 10:25 AM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(29-03-2019, 01:39 AM)geoffreycaveney Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.text:
[ odain  sh2ky  qorain  chckhey  qokey  lkechy  okeey  otal  chedkaly ]

Too bad it's okal, not otal.

I will reply to Rene's objections and the other comments, but to begin with I can refute this objection:

It is [otal], not [okal]. Before I even begin to interpret a line, I carefully study each letter of the line on Beinecke's high-resolution photo images. I do not simply rely on the automatic letter identifications on voynichese.com or other sites, because sometimes they are wrong. This is such a case.

Here is the high-resolution photo image of the two words [okeey otal] for comparison. Pay partiöcular attention to the [k] and the [t]:



Notice the angle at which the [k] in [okeey] goes up and down on the top left part of the letter. It is not a loop.

Now look at the same top left part of the letter [t] in [otal]. It is clearly different. The scribe made a loop there. Yes, it is a small loop, but it is a loop. The letter is a [t].

Again, I made this letter identification before I even began to interpret the line in Judaeo-Greek at all. I determine all the letter identifications before I begin to interpret each line.

Geoffrey

I think you made a good call. I too think it is prudent to go by the actual text rather than relying on the trascriptions, i have come across a couple myself, just in passing.

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(29-03-2019, 03:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've created 4 transcripts, so I have looked at every character in the VMS many times.

I'm not convinced it's otal. I think it might be a blobby okal, not a loop. In cases like this, I record it in the transcript with both alternatives and I step away from choosing one or the other.

I could see that getting very bulky, but i appreciate it as an extension of your open mind philosophy.

Linda Wrote:

(29-03-2019, 03:33 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I've created 4 transcripts, so I have looked at every character in the VMS many times.

I'm not convinced it's otal. I think it might be a blobby okal, not a loop. In cases like this, I record it in the transcript with both alternatives and I step away from choosing one or the other.

I could see that getting very bulky, but i appreciate it as an extension of your open mind philosophy.

It's not especially bulky. It may happen a couple of times per folio, but that's not a lot.

I think it's more important to acknowledge and even preserve an ambiguity than to make an incorrect assumption. There's enough text that the ambiguities would eventually be resolved by discovering how the text is constructed.