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Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

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• Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  Oscroft > Yesterday, 02:53 PM

  (Yesterday, 12:22 PM)amelkin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  (2) Dr. Hartlieb was the only person at the time who possessed the full spectrum of knowledge covered in the Voynich Manuscript. 

  
  I confess I'd never heard of Dr. Hartlieb until today. But how could you possibly know he's the *only* one?
  
  Going from something along the lines of "I don't know anyone else who had sufficient knowledge apart from Dr. Hartlieb" to "Dr. Hartlieb was the only person to have sufficient knowledge" seems like an example of the Holmesian fallacy, if that's your reasoning.
  
  Why couldn't other people you haven't heard of have sufficient knowledge?
  
  (And as an aside, while we still can't read the VMS, how can you even know what full spectrum of knowledge was needed anyway?)
  
  Not devastated,
  Alan

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  amelkin > Yesterday, 03:39 PM

  (Yesterday, 02:53 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (Yesterday, 12:22 PM)amelkin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  (2) Dr. Hartlieb was the only person at the time who possessed the full spectrum of knowledge covered in the Voynich Manuscript. 

  
  I confess I'd never heard of Dr. Hartlieb until today. But how could you possibly know he's the *only* one?
  
  Going from something along the lines of "I don't know anyone else who had sufficient knowledge apart from Dr. Hartlieb" to "Dr. Hartlieb was the only person to have sufficient knowledge" seems like an example of the Holmesian fallacy, if that's your reasoning.
  
  Why couldn't other people you haven't heard of have sufficient knowledge?
  
  (And as an aside, while we still can't read the VMS, how can you even know what full spectrum of knowledge was needed anyway?)
  
  Not devastated,
  Alan

  
  
  Dear Alan,
  
  Johannes Hartlieb was the most educated physician in 15th-century Bavaria, and there was no other scholar in the region with a comparable breadth of knowledge and experience. I have attempted to identify similar specialists in Bavaria from that era, but so far without success. I focused my search specifically on Bavaria because the illustrations and certain inscriptions in the Voynich Manuscript led me to conclude that it was likely written there, most probably around the mid-15th century. As a prolific writer, Dr. Hartlieb would certainly have possessed a substantial stock of old parchment — produced during the first half of the 15th century — which he could have handed over to a team of scribes to produce the manuscript based on his own drafts and instructions.
  
  Thank you.
  
  Cordially,
  Alexander

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  oshfdk > Yesterday, 03:51 PM

  (Yesterday, 03:39 PM)amelkin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As a prolific writer, Dr. Hartlieb would certainly have possessed a substantial stock of old parchment — produced during the first half of the 15th century — which he could have handed over to a team of scribes to produce the manuscript based on his own drafts and instructions.

  
  And what is the reason this well off royal court doctor chose for this job some old and quite poor quality parchment with holes and other defects? Many defects and holes certainly predate writing, since the writing goes around them.

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  eggyk > Yesterday, 03:58 PM

  (Yesterday, 03:39 PM)amelkin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Johannes Hartlieb was the most educated physician in 15th-century Bavaria, and there was no other scholar in the region with a comparable breadth of knowledge and experience. I have attempted to identify similar specialists in Bavaria from that era, but so far without success. I focused my search specifically on Bavaria because the illustrations and certain inscriptions in the Voynich Manuscript led me to conclude that it was likely written there, most probably around the mid-15th century.

  
  Firstly, to state this with such certainty is completely ridiculous. It was 600 years ago; just because you can't find anyone specific who had more knowledge does not mean Harlieb actually was the only one with that knowledge. Are you aware of how many extremely detailed manuscripts from Bavaria exist today with no named author? Were they all written by Johannes Hartlieb too? 
  
  Secondly, yes, there are inscriptions that maybe point to the VMS being in Bavaria at some point, but that does not mean it was authored there. It's entirely possible the work was written somewhere else entirely, and the work found it's way to Bavaria later. Your geographical origin pool should be increased to account for this. Have you checked the alsace region, austria or nothern italy? There are plenty of works and people that travelled between them.

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  Oscroft > Yesterday, 04:09 PM

  (Yesterday, 03:39 PM)amelkin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Dear Alan,
  
  Johannes Hartlieb was the most educated physician in 15th-century Bavaria, and there was no other scholar in the region with a comparable breadth of knowledge and experience. I have attempted to identify similar specialists in Bavaria from that era, but so far without success. I focused my search specifically on Bavaria because the illustrations and certain inscriptions in the Voynich Manuscript led me to conclude that it was likely written there, most probably around the mid-15th century. As a prolific writer, Dr. Hartlieb would certainly have possessed a substantial stock of old parchment — produced during the first half of the 15th century — which he could have handed over to a team of scribes to produce the manuscript based on his own drafts and instructions.
  
  Thank you.
  
  Cordially,
  Alexander

  
  Exactly as I thought, then - Holmesian fallacy.
  
  I'll consider taking your claim that he's the *only* possible candidate seriously when you can do these two things...
  
  1) Tell us how many people were alive in 1425.
  2) Name them.
  
  Alan

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  Oscroft > Yesterday, 04:18 PM

  A generalised comment...
  
  This discussion highlights what I see as another fundamental error common among Voynich theorists - overconfidence (sometimes devastating) in one's own abilities, knowledge, and conclusions. I think progress could potentially be more constructive if fewer certainties were asserted, and more tentative opinions offered with an open mind.

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  bi3mw > Yesterday, 04:40 PM

  Another generalised comment...
  
  I have often seen here in the past that the VMS is attributed to prominent authors of the (late) Middle Ages. Only about 10% of all manuscripts have survived to this day. From this pool, authors are then selected who stand out due to the volume of their work and/or the quality of their form and content. In my view, however, there is no causal connection between prominence and possible authorship of the VMS. On the contrary, the manuscript’s (so far) unique nature suggests it is more likely the work of one of the many, indeed the overwhelming majority, of unknown authors.
  
  This leads me to wonder whether the focus on prominent names stems more from our modern need for identification and historical context than from the actual evidence at hand.

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  Koen G > Yesterday, 05:36 PM

  Another generalized comment: in the middle Ages, authorities were more important than authors. A learned man was one who knew his classics. Learned authors referred to the classics. That does not mean there was no novelty involved, but in the vast majority of cases, being an author meant interacting with the known sources.

• RE: Dr. Hartlieb's alleged involvement in the creation of the Voynich Manuscript

  Jorge_Stolfi > 2 hours ago

  (Yesterday, 02:23 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  
  I think it is extremely unlikely that Hartllieb was the VMS Author, for reasons that are given elsewhere.
  
  However, to my eyes the letter shapes on that manuscript are a fair match to those of f116v, excluding the Voynichese words.   Is that manuscript in Koen's list of candidates for f116v?
  
  I suppose the resemblance is not sufficient to make Hartlieb a likely candidate for the person who wrote the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. text.   Even because the shapes in the latter are quite variable, as expected from someone trying too retrace a text that was mostly erased.  But the author of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. was probably from the same region as Hartlieb's homeland, and was either his contemporary or was intentionally trying to write in "old style" letters.
  
  All the best, --stolfi
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