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Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
- Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
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Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
conlangyalesbaby > 15-07-2026, 10:40 PM
They say its been around for 600 years. Would that be plenty of time to at least identify the properties of the document, so the users could target a cipher for that structure? Can we agree it's a conlang with low entropy, yes or no? Many have reported it does not behave like a normal language, if it's constructed, it does not have to follow other language rules. What I know there is a great deal of repeating structure to the text. Since the document was long would this be a tactic if the author did not want the contents of MS-408 to be known?
Also some formal structure needs to be utilized as an assment tool as to develop for anyone serious who does not upload a Ai theory even if it is a cipher, it needs to be refereed by a group or someone who understands what it would convey if it's repeatable by anyone.
Do you think a document that has repeatable words at the rate of the MS-408 borders on gibberish? -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
Nyeogmi > Yesterday, 03:09 AM
I don't think this information is currently known.
If it's a natural language, it either has a very rigid word and syllable structure (and a small number of sounds) or the letters do not encode that. I think the "monosyllabic tonal language" theory is the most plausible version of this, but it raises questions given that the book is full of western European cultural images.
If it is a conlang, it's probably not especially similar to German or Latin. In a "low entropy" conlang, we would expect that it takes four or five times as many words for Voynich Writer Guy to get their meaning across.
If it's a cipher, we're not sure what technology was used. It would probably be of higher complexity than common ciphers from the time period. Weirder things have happened. I would expect the construction to feel a lot less artificial than something like the Naibbe cipher, but if it is discovered to mean anything, this is kind of what I'm expecting.
When I see "qokedy qokeedy qokechdy lol qokedy qokeedy qokechdy lol" my immediate thought is "That person is inexactly copying and manipulating symbols from elsewhere on the page. -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
ololololo > Yesterday, 09:11 AM
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think a document that has repeatable words at the rate of the MS-408 borders on gibberish?
It depends on what kind of repetitions you mean. They are found in all languages and are not something supernatural.
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can we agree it's a conlang with low entropy, yes or no?
We can't, because no one has provided convincing evidence or an example of a similar language.
If Voynichese is an artificial language, it is likely to be linguistically incomplete (i.e., you may not be able to use it to communicate with people or describe your day) and functional (i.e., designed to describe what is depicted in the book).
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many have reported it does not behave like a normal language, if it's constructed, it does not have to follow other language rules
No one has canceled the banal encryption
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RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
ololololo > Yesterday, 10:43 AM
(Yesterday, 03:09 AM)Nyeogmi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It would probably be of higher complexity than common ciphers from the time period.
You can do something similar by simply using You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. For example, the simplest cipher is to replace numbers with Voynichese letters. Here's what I got when I encrypted Lorem ipsum:
okeo okaiin chor cphdy daiin cheor chedan ol chd chey chol sheol oiin dan oro raiin oteaiin chor sheor cphy qo otey dan shdan...
This is far from perfect and is not an exact reproduction of the VMS text, but I think it is somewhat similar, and the cipher reproduces the features of Voynichese.
(Yesterday, 03:09 AM)Nyeogmi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think the "monosyllabic tonal language" theory is the most plausible version of this
First of all, it's unclear what kind of language it is. Secondly, it is assumed that the language is recorded using some author's method. Thirdly, if we try to find similarities, we won't get very far... -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
Stefan Wirtz_2 > Yesterday, 01:08 PM
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..]Can we agree it's a conlang with low entropy, yes or no?
No.
(Yesterday, 03:09 AM)Nyeogmi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[..], but it raises questions given that the book is full of western European cultural images.
Where are these "western European cultural images" in VMS?
I see nothing specifically western European in it, but generally European, with very low influence of christian symbolism. -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
oshfdk > Yesterday, 02:07 PM
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.They say its been around for 600 years. Would that be plenty of time to at least identify the properties of the document, so the users could target a cipher for that structure?
Absolutely, yes. There should have been plenty of time to identify what kind of manuscript it is, what it's about and which party/group/sect/cult/profession/individual is responsible for creating it, etc. It's not totally clear what the manuscript has been up to for the whole 600 years, but at least for the past 100 years I'd say all the right people have seen it and a lot of tests have been performed, so normally, yes, by now we would have a very good idea about what it is.
Except, we don't and this is the very reason why this forum exists and why the manuscript is included in the list of the most mysterious artifacts and people discuss some weirdest scenarios.
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Can we agree it's a conlang with low entropy, yes or no?
We can't. And it doesn't look like a conlang to me at all.
(15-07-2026, 10:40 PM)conlangyalesbaby Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Do you think a document that has repeatable words at the rate of the MS-408 borders on gibberish?
No, I don't. -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
Oscroft > Yesterday, 02:24 PM
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RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
Mauro > Yesterday, 02:40 PM
(Yesterday, 02:24 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Out of interest, what is a conlang supposed to look like? Isn't it supposed to look like... a lang?
Well, there is a pretty big variety out there, from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but yes, they are generally language-like, even if languages can be pretty strange. -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
rikforto > Yesterday, 03:28 PM
(Yesterday, 02:24 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Out of interest, what is a conlang supposed to look like? Isn't it supposed to look like... a lang?
I think, at least theoretically, there is a real possibility that conlangs have features which are either strictly impossible in natural languages or vanishingly unlikely to evolve from practical use. There is nothing stopping a conlanger from ordering the phonemes, bizarre an aesthetic choice as that would be, and I think deserves some real consideration. The repetitions are harder for me to account for, but also may stem from non-naturalistic processes; instead they may be, as some people have noted, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a position which is conlang-neutral. The point being that a conlang theory has the possibility of explaining or sitting nicely with the things that are linguistically odd while also explaining those which are linguistically expected.
One must beware, of course, theories which can simply chalk any inconvenient facts up to the choice or error of the author or scribes as those become buckets that hold disproof and make it impossible to falsify such theories. Those looking at the manuscript through a conlang lens must therefore be careful to track when they are assuming away problems or risk joining the hordes of solvers who simply see contradiction as a shortcoming of the data rather than the lens. But conceptually, at least, I think the (historically grounded!) expectation that a conlang look like a natural language can be relaxed to ask questions about what a person might have constructed. -
RE: Is there any protocols to identify what sort of document MS-408 is?
Oscroft > Yesterday, 04:08 PM
(Yesterday, 03:28 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(Yesterday, 02:24 PM)Oscroft Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Out of interest, what is a conlang supposed to look like? Isn't it supposed to look like... a lang?
I think, at least theoretically, there is a real possibility that conlangs have features which are either strictly impossible in natural languages or vanishingly unlikely to evolve from practical use. There is nothing stopping a conlanger from ordering the phonemes, bizarre an aesthetic choice as that would be, and I think deserves some real consideration. The repetitions are harder for me to account for, but also may stem from non-naturalistic processes; instead they may be, as some people have noted, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a position which is conlang-neutral. The point being that a conlang theory has the possibility of explaining or sitting nicely with the things that are linguistically odd while also explaining those which are linguistically expected.
One must beware, of course, theories which can simply chalk any inconvenient facts up to the choice or error of the author or scribes as those become buckets that hold disproof and make it impossible to falsify such theories. Those looking at the manuscript through a conlang lens must therefore be careful to track when they are assuming away problems or risk joining the hordes of solvers who simply see contradiction as a shortcoming of the data rather than the lens. But conceptually, at least, I think the (historically grounded!) expectation that a conlang look like a natural language can be relaxed to ask questions about what a person might have constructed.
Interesting... a colang should look like a real lang, but with less of the apparent randomness that builds up with natural langs over the centuries. So, more consistent structure, less entropy... yes, makes sense, thanks.