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New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
- New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
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RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
monisusa > Yesterday, 09:30 AM
"olas" is also typical Bavarian for "alles" = everything. It shows the dark Bavarian "a" which is almost pronounced like "o". It sounds like the English a in "call".
"cevc" = /keuk/ or /koik/ is a striking feature and shows the L-Vocalization of Central Bavarian. It means "quick lime" in the recipe and was mixed (see character M that represents the pharmaceutical abbreviation for misce = to mix)with the potash (Pottasche = povtas) to achieve a saponification. This made the ointment more smooth and helped to penetrate the skin more effectively. -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
ololololo > Yesterday, 09:33 AM
(Yesterday, 09:11 AM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
With some assumptions, it still sounds plausible. However, if this is bocksleber, then why did the author write it down as poxleber? Are there any other examples of similar practices where words were written down the same way they were pronounced? And is it really worth omitting the pox-prefix?(21-06-2026, 09:50 PM)ololololo Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(21-06-2026, 09:38 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Since the word “Poxleber” was found in an Austrian sermon, I believe it’s highly likely that the marginal notes are Bavarian.
By the way, there are problems even with reading text on f17r. Even if we accept this as true, the meaning of this text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not particularly clear in this form. I believe that the combination of the word poxleber and crosses suggests a magical rather than a medicinal meaning.
However, reading “mchiton” as “anchiton” has already been discussed; yet interpreting it as “anchiton” = a c hi ton = “an zeh hin tun” and “oladabas” = “als a bas(in)” = “alles ein basin”- in short, “an zeh hin tun alles ein basin” (a toe do in, everything a basin) - requires a high degree of eisegesis. Especially since this sentence doesn’t make any sense at all without heavy interpretation (eisegesis), and other “interpretations” also seem rather far-fetched to me - since they require a high degree of interpretation. Another example: atzia = atzen (to etch) mo vix? mo = mollire vix = wax.
Especially turning the Voynichese into Latin abbreviations - difficult....
I, for one, am not convinced. But of course, that doesn’t mean anything
And I would also like to know why the author shortened the words so much...
P.S. Of course, it's off-topic, but I had a theory that the marginalia on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. were not written by the author, but by someone who received the manuscript from the author. This person might have known more about the manuscript and attempted to decipher it. It's possible that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents an unsuccessful attempt at deciphering the manuscript (it's possible that the recipe).
Hi, thank you for your question. Bocksleber = poxleber = liver of a billy goat. Liver was a common ingredient of medieval medicine. I explained that the "crosses" simply are addition signs to note which ingredients have to be added and which production steps to be carried out next. I could not find any trace of a magical content however, it is clearly a recipe with ingredients as willow bark, wax, potash, quick lime. I had these lines checked by the Head of the Austrian Chamber of Pharmacy Prof. Beba and he confirmed the plausibility of it. I reproduced this ointment successfully. -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
oshfdk > Yesterday, 10:39 AM
"an c hi ton olas a bas(sin) + mvltos(ch) + tc + ca v cevc + povtas(ch) + M +
s(al)ix + ma(cerat) vix + mo(llire) vix + V\X + atzia + ma(na) in vi(tr)a +
ar(d)or (ar)t(ri)ticus vals c nv z vey so nim gasmich o…"
"Apply to toe, everything into a basin + gauze bag + sebum + quicklime + potash + M(mix)
salix (willow bark) + (into) macerate(put)wax + melt wax + V\X(minutes) + let get thickly + pour it into glasses+
ardor artriticus if toe still too painful then take goatsmilk o…"
It still looks like nonsense to me. Could you show any actual medieval manuscripts with all these Bavarian spellings, or are those just your guesses? -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 10:55 AM
(Yesterday, 09:16 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Jojo: about the attestations of poxleber, let's keep our facts straight:
"Poxleber" was not found in an Austrian sermon. The sermon complains about pox-swearing in general but does not mention the example of "leber".
"Poxleber" has been found only once as an extremely rare spelling variation of the common "pocksleber" in a ca. 1500 law of the city of Kitzbuhel (Tyrol). Here, it is nothing more than a cut of meat, the liver of the male goat.
"Poxleber" has been found a few times in the work of Hans Sachs, as extremely vulgar curses uttered by peasants in his ca. 1550 carnival plays. Today's words with the same impact would be of a sexual nature, like motherf*cker or c*cks*cker. Anyone who for some reason still wishes to champion this reading should keep that in mind. It's not as mild as "goddammit" sounds today, which is why it's only written down 100 years after the VM was made, in carnivalesque contexts.
Sorry, I was actually sure because I transcribed the text back then, but I probably remembered it wrong or am confusing it with Hans Sachs -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
Bernd > Yesterday, 12:06 PM
(Yesterday, 09:11 AM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had these lines checked by the Head of the Austrian Chamber of Pharmacy Prof. Beba and he confirmed the plausibility of it. I reproduced this ointment successfully.
I assume you mean Franz Biba (Mag. pharm.), librarian at the library of the Austrian Chamber of Pharmacists. But neither is he a professor nor was he ever the overall head of the chamber. This is not meant to diminish his qualifications, but to keep things straight. If you cite people, please cite them correctly. Have you checked their library or asked for relevant manuscripts? Since you apparently have a connection to their librarian, this might be an interesting source for VM-related texts.
I also have to ask - did you show Mr. Biba a picture of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (preferably the multispectral images), or just your interpretation of the text? -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
BessAgritianin > Yesterday, 04:46 PM
(21-06-2026, 05:42 PM)monisusa Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have completed a linguistic analysis of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. marginalia based on several years of work.
Findings (very brief):
- script and phonology indicate a Central Bavarian Dialect (15th century)
- numerous Latin pharmaceutical abbreviations could be resolved
- The text reads as an ointment recipe, it is not magical
- The two encoded words in "Voynichese" were resolved and fit the recipe context (not a spell)
- Linguistic interference shows the scribe wrote in Central Bavarian with Latin abbreviations
but was not a native German Speaker
- Previously unnoticed "wrong" word boundaries (e.g. anchiton > an/ c / hi / ton > an Zeh hin tun > apply to toe) were corrected and now yields a coherent context
Full analysis: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Feedback is welcome. Thank you for your interest.
Of course is a recipe, you can check my translation in case you are interested in:
From 02.05.25 : Foil116v -An Ancient Recipe (updated) and in Academia- completed:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
JoJo_Jost > Yesterday, 06:57 PM
(Yesterday, 04:46 PM)BessAgritianin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course is a recipe, you can check my translation in case you are interested in:
From 02.05.25 : Foil116v -An Ancient Recipe (updated) and in Academia- completed:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
According to Wikipedia, the actual syphilis pathogen did not reach Europe until the discovery of North America at the end of the 15th century (1493/1496). -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
Stefan Wirtz_2 > Yesterday, 09:54 PM
I would really like to see any 15th ct. reference for the letter „c“ used as an abbreviation of german „Zeh“ (toe).
This may be some child‘s play with our language, but not all a usual speaking and writing — not even in some „Bavarian“… -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
Aga Tentakulus > Yesterday, 11:48 PM
(Yesterday, 04:46 PM)BessAgritianin Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Of course is a recipe, you can check my translation in case you are interested in:
It's not a recipe; it's a saying.
A few examples have already been posted here on Ninja, but who knows where.
(Yesterday, 06:57 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.According to Wikipedia, the actual syphilis pathogen did not reach Europe until the discovery of North America at the end of the 15th century (1493/1496).
That's right—that's how the locals “thanked” the measles.
If you replace the “x” in “six, marix morix vix” with an “s,” you get a saying. It's in Latin, and according to the dictionary, it's error-free.
"Bock stirb mit der Kraft der heiligen Maria".
“Bock, die with the power of the Holy Mary.”
Sinngemäs: "Warze vergehe mit der Kraft der über allem stehenden Maria"
Roughly translated: “Wart, vanish with the power of Mary, who stands above all.”
“so nim xxx mich an” “so nim xxx mich auch”
The “o” stands for the Bavarian “an” or the Alemannic “auch”; in Alemannic, “an” is pronounced ‘a’ or “au.”
Fill in the blank at xxx. If you write “goat” here, either you don't know German, or you're an idiot.
The message is quite clear: be careful so that the saying doesn’t come back to bite you. -
RE: New analysis of f116v, Central Bavarian dialect
JoJo_Jost > Today, 05:50 AM
(Yesterday, 11:48 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If you replace the “x” in “six, marix morix vix” with an “s,” you get a saying. It's in Latin, and according to the dictionary, it's error-free.
"Bock stirb mit der Kraft der heiligen Maria".
“Bock, die with the power of the Holy Mary.”
Sinngemäs: "Warze vergehe mit der Kraft der über allem stehenden Maria"
sis maris moris vis abeat maria ????
I don't understand this translation, it makes no sence —do you have a source?