- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
[split] Volvelles or Disks
- [split] Volvelles or Disks
-
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
AliciaNelPresente > 14-02-2026, 09:36 PM
(14-02-2026, 09:31 PM)Mauro Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-02-2026, 08:27 PM)AliciaNelPresente Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The hypothesis I am putting forward, that the text is physically constrained by a state dependent mechanism
This may well be possible, of course (among many other possible things). It has been proposed many times and in many different flavours, I myself made a complicated set of software 'volvelles' which writes a text very similar to the original Voynich in many statistics (a gibberish text, in this case). The problem is to find a system which works and convinces people due to its explanatory power (mine failed to convince even its author
).
That sounds interesting, Mauro. Could you share it with me privately? If it's code, I love hitting the “Run” button
-
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
Rafal > 14-02-2026, 10:24 PM
Quote:This means the glyph you write now is mechanically forced by the glyph you wrote immediately before.
Quote:It is empirically deterministic
The problem is that Voynichese is probabilistic and not deterministic.
The letters depend of previous letters but these aren't absolute rules, just tendencies.
You will find a lot of exceptions and uncanny cases for any rule you will say, even for Prefix + Root + Suffix word structure.
If some disks or volvelles were used, they weren't the only thing. -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
RobGea > 14-02-2026, 11:06 PM
The way i see it, is that using Volvelles gets you nowhere, it gives no leverage.
Volvelles are simply paper machines, without an instruction set they are useless.
Defining the instruction set is where the problem lies.
:: As an aside you may find this link of interest:
Computational attacks on the Voynich manuscript : Cipher Wheels
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
AliciaNelPresente > 15-02-2026, 12:03 AM
What if the 'Instruction Set' isn't a missing manual, but the Volvelle itself?
Look at the Stolfi Crust-Mantle-Core diagram you shared. It assumes those rings spin freely. But if we apply the dependency logic we've been discussing where the current state restricts the next one (where a current glyph restricts the following) the picture changes completely.
![[Image: crustmantlecorewheels2.png?w=2048]](https://voynichattacks.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/crustmantlecorewheels2.png?w=2048)
Imagine that the rings are geared (or geared in some way) to each other.
In this scenario, the 'Instruction Set' isn't missing; it is friction.
The scribe didn't have the freedom to choose any combination. The Volvelle made the choice for him.
If we treat the text not as a language, but as text generated by a Volvella, with physical limitations, the low entropy and repetitive “prefix-root-suffix” structure cease to be a mystery and become a mechanical necessity.
Alicia from Sicily -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
Bluetoes101 > 15-02-2026, 12:12 AM
-
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
AliciaNelPresente > 15-02-2026, 12:18 AM
Got it, my mistake then! I’m still quite new here, but there are definitely some very interesting voices that deserve more attention haha -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
Bluetoes101 > 15-02-2026, 12:41 AM
No problem, it was only so that its not awkward in future.
Definitely, and you have found one with Jorge's work! I haven't had time to read the post properly yet, but if you are looking at Jorge's work you are already on a good path. I'll try find time soon, and good luck with it!
-
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
RobGea > 15-02-2026, 01:08 AM
Ah, it seems i have confused the issue by using the term "instruction set". my apologies, I am not sure of the correct word for what i mean.
Imagine if in the post#14 diagram all 3 circles were blank, no glyphs , no partitions.
What is the set of rules needed to make the blank Volvelle produce a voynich word ? -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
AliciaNelPresente > 15-02-2026, 08:20 AM
(15-02-2026, 12:41 AM)Bluetoes101 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Definitely, and you have found one with Jorge's work! I haven't had time to read the post properly yet, but if you are looking at Jorge's work you are already on a good path.
Of course, it's my pleasure
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s' (Matthew 22:21) -
RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks
AliciaNelPresente > 15-02-2026, 09:29 AM
(15-02-2026, 01:08 AM)RobGea Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah, it seems i have confused the issue by using the term "instruction set". my apologies, I am not sure of the correct word for what i mean.
Imagine if in the post#14 diagram all 3 circles were blank, no glyphs , no partitions.
What is the set of rules needed to make the blank Volvelle produce a voynich word ?
Please, no need to apologize. In fact, it helped to crystallize a line of reasoning I had not fully articulated before.
And regarding your mental challenge... "Imagine if in the post#14 diagram all 3 circles were blank... What is the set of rules needed to make the blank Volvelle produce a Voynich word?"
Wow, Rob. If I understand you correctly, are you indirectly asking me to solve the mystery and hand over the source code of the machine right here?
Joking aside, let’s look at the wheel from the article you shared You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and see why it hits ~93% coverage but fails to explain the final logic.
That image is fascinating because it visualizes linguistics, not mechanics. Stolfi’s model places the "Core" (vowels, connectors) in the center and the "Crust" (Gallows/Prefixes) on the outside. It works descriptively, but mechanically it is inefficient. A machine doesn't build a word from the center outward, it builds it sequentially (1 > 2 > 3 or Prefix + Root + Suffix).
If you give me those 3 blank circles, here are the rules (and the content) I would write to make them generate perfect "Voynichese":
I wouldn't fill the rings by grammatical layers, but by Order of Operation:
- Ring 1: I wouldn't put random crust characters here. I would place the Gallows (P, F, T, K). Why? Because physically, they are the largest levers
- Ring 2 (Middle/Follower): Here go the dense Roots (chol, shol, cheey...).
- Ring 3 (Inner/Result): Here go the Suffixes (-dy, -in, -al).
The Golden Rule: This is where the Genetic Algorithm article falls short. The article assumes that "the user may skip one or more of the N wheels" or select glyphs freely. It models Infinite Choice. My rule for your blank volvelle is simple: Drag.
"If Ring 1 (Driver) is set to position 'F', Ring 2 (Follower) is mechanically LOCKED to sector 45º-90º."
If you apply this physical constraint to your blank circles, that 93% coverage tightens up significantly. You eliminate the "noise" and the impossible combinations because the machine physically cannot produce them.
In summary, the wheel in the article has the correct anatomy (the parts are there), but the physiology (how they move) is backwards. Flip the logic, put the Gallows on the outside as "drivers," and the Volvelle starts running on its own.
And as you can see, for this logic, you only need paper and a pen.
Alicia from Sicily - Ring 1: I wouldn't put random crust characters here. I would place the Gallows (P, F, T, K). Why? Because physically, they are the largest levers