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[split] Volvelles or Disks

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• [split] Volvelles or Disks

• [split] Volvelles or Disks

  AliciaNelPresente > 9 hours ago

  Hi everyone,
  
  I wanted to open a discussion on a specific possibility that seems to be gaining traction with the recent studies coming out.We have all seen the discussion around Greshko's "Naibbe Cipher" and how it generates text that statistically resembles the Voynich. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Then, Pincar’s model identifies a very specific dependency in the text. Essentially, he demonstrates that the ciphertext depends not just on the current symbol, but on the previous one as well meaning the system has "memory" or context. And let's be clear, he himself highlights the following in his article: “This model identifies the structure, but not the content. We cannot determine: the identity of the source language, the semantic meaning of any word, or whether the manuscript contains meaningful information.” You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  If we start from that basis, that there is a mechanical dependency between the previous state and the current one, could we be looking at the text result of a three part volvelle or cipher disk?
  
  A device with concentric rings (Outer, Middle, Inner) would naturally force the rigid Prefix + Root + Suffix word structure that we see throughout the manuscript. Something like this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I am curious to hear your thoughts. At first glance, what jars you about this idea? Does a mechanical "wheel" explanation fail to account for any specific linguistic features you've noticed?
  
  Alicia

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  nablator > 8 hours ago

  People have been speculating about 3-parts ciphers since the first word models... the difficulty is to identify the parts (avoiding ambiguity), cover all combinations of glyphs found in Voynichese (proposed volvelle ciphers don't) and explain why statistics are not flat: homophones maybe, or nulls. Both make the cipher more difficult to crack.
  
  See for example:
  This article by ReneZ: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  These posts by MarcoP: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  

  (9 hours ago)AliciaNelPresente Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Pincar’s model identifies

  
  I wouldn't trust this article to identify anything. It's AI slop.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  Rafal > 7 hours ago

  Quote:I wouldn't trust this article to identify anything. It's AI slop.

  
  Slop or not, it repeats the well known facts but is extremely vague when it comes to anything new. It doesn't give you any working cipher like Naibbe. And it doesn't give you any hint if the Voynich text is meaningful or not.
  
  Encoding some text in a cipher and generating some gibberish are very different things.
  
  And yes, both of them may be done using cipher wheels, volvelles, grilles, tables and so on.
  But it doesn't help you much.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  DG97EEB > 7 hours ago

  The Naibbe cipher is interesting, but he says himself it doesn't achieve quite a lot of the statistical properties of Voynich, so as a demonstration of form and method it's useful, but it's far from conclusive. I've played around with a dozen ciphers, including Cardan grilles and Volvelles together to try to find something that works, but have only hit 87% of Bowern-Gaskill statistics. It seems high until you realise that the key ones such as autocorrelation are extremely difficult. Then you need to decide if it's word level you're looking at or character level.
  
  You also have quite different measurements depending which section of the manuscript you're comparing against.  Looking at the recipes section, the nearest I've come has been something templated. Both Arabic and Chinese formulary texts match well, but then have the wrong word length. So the tricky thing is which kind of text in which language against which part of the Voynich, with which kind of cipher on top. There are almost too many variables to control for. On top of that you then need to decide whether you are using the script itself or EVA, and then which EVA, and then how you treat tokenisation. 
  
  I call Voynich an example of Chop Suey pareidolia.. Everything fits depending on the individual choices you make.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  MHTamdgidi_(Behrooz) > 7 hours ago

  (9 hours ago)AliciaNelPresente Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A device with concentric rings (Outer, Middle, Inner) would naturally force the rigid Prefix + Root + Suffix word structure that we see throughout the manuscript. Something like this: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  I am curious to hear your thoughts. At first glance, what jars you about this idea? Does a mechanical "wheel" explanation fail to account for any specific linguistic features you've noticed?
  
  Alicia

  
  That is an interesting line of inquiry and I think vovelle considerations will eventually have something to do with the chart on f57v, as I am sure others have considered it too. I will leave it to you and experts to find the link, but that chart could also function as a vovelle, if only we knew how. That medieval vovelle link is interesting; thanks for sharing it. Also thanks to nablator for sharing those links.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  RobGea > 6 hours ago

  This does not read like AI slop, there are some questionable things and some interesting things, anyway, i'm going to play with it.
  
  I see it has is no reference to R.Zandbergens  "NOT the solution to the Voynich MS" , pity, that paper needs more love + discussion.
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  AliciaNelPresente > 4 hours ago

  Thanks everyone for the replies, this is getting interesting. I want to address the critical points raised because I think we are hovering over something important.
  
  [quote="nablator" pid='79652' dateline='1771082974']
  I wouldn't trust this article to identify anything. It's AI slop.
  [/quote]
  
  I appreciate the skepticism. However, regarding the "AI slop" label, I would ask that you let me judge the content based on my own experience. To me, this reads as a structured academic proposal, not generated noise. If there are specific methodological flaws in the math, let's debate those. 
  
  
  [quote="Rafal" pid='79654' dateline='1771084795']
  [quote]
  Slop or not, it repeats the well known facts but is extremely vague when it comes to anything new. It doesn't give you any working cipher like Naibbe. And it doesn't give you any hint if the Voynich text is meaningful or not.
  [/quote]
  
  With all due respect, I believe there are two options here: either the paper wasn't read closely, or the implication of its core finding wasn't fully visualized. Both are understandable. Pincar isn't trying to sell us a dictionary, he is defining an architecture.
  
  
  To put it simply for everyone following the thread: This means the glyph you write now is mechanically forced by the glyph you wrote immediately before.
  
  Think of a combination lock or a gear system. If you are at position 'A', you physically can only move to position 'B'. You cannot jump to 'Z'. This eliminates free will, grammar, and narrative flow. It proves the system has "immediate mechanical memory" but no long term narrative memory.
  
  Why the Volvelle explains what linguistics theories cannot? This brings me back to the argument for the 3 Disk Volvelle. If we accept Pincar’s "state dependency" as true, a physical device with concentric rings (Prefix-Root-Suffix) is the only hypothesis that satisfies and replicates the two most difficult statistical "demons" of the manuscript:
  
  The lexical Poverty (Broken Zipf's Law) and the low entropy
  
  If I'm wrong about something, please correct me. I love feedback and I'm here to learn, as a good philosophy teacher used to say in class, knowledge takes up no space!
  

  ---

  Oh my gosh, I don't think I quite understand how the “Quote” function works. Sorry about that haha

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  tavie > 4 hours ago

  Hi Alicia.  We prohibit theories that are assisted by a chatbot like ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini because so far they inevitably spit out hallucinations as far as the Voynich is concerned.  That is what is meant by AI slop.  You can go see many examples that are in the subforum The Slop Bucket.  
  
  I can see from your post above that you are feeding stuff into an LLM and copypasting its output here.  Please don't post any ideas that have come from it.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  AliciaNelPresente > 4 hours ago

  Hi Mr Tavie, It's a pleasure!
  
  I understand the policy against 'AI slop' and I respect the need to keep the forum clean of generative nonsense. I’ve seen the subforum and I get the fatigue.
  
  However, I completely disagree with your conclusion regarding my posts. The hypothesis I am putting forward, that the text is physically constrained by a state dependent mechanism, is the exact opposite of an 'AI hallucination.'
  
  It is empirically deterministic. An AI hallucinates when it invents facts. What I am describing the mechanical constraints of a volvelle. You don't need a chatbot to verify it. You don't even need a computer. You just need a pen and a piece of paper. I invite you to actually check the logic yourself. If the output depends on the previous state, a volvelle is a valid physical explanation.
  
  In any case, I wasn't trying to cause trouble, just to start a discussion.

• RE: [split] Volvelles or Disks

  Mauro > 3 hours ago

  (4 hours ago)AliciaNelPresente Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The hypothesis I am putting forward, that the text is physically constrained by a state dependent mechanism

  
  This may well be possible, of course (among many other possible things). It has been proposed many times and in many different flavours, I myself made a complicated set of software 'volvelles' which writes a text very similar to the original Voynich in many statistics (a gibberish text, in this case). The problem is to find a system which works and convinces people due to its explanatory power (mine failed to convince even its author  ).
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