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Why and how the text could be Bavarian
- Why and how the text could be Bavarian
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RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 16-04-2026, 10:02 PM
At the moment, I think that if the theory that it is Bavarian is confirmed, we might be able to translate about 20 to 30 percent of the sentences with minor gaps—the rest gets lost in the dialect and through assimilation. Individual words in the diagrams will likely remain indecipherable. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
Ruby Novacna > 17-04-2026, 09:44 AM
(16-04-2026, 10:02 PM)JoJo_Jost Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At the moment, I think that if the theory that it is Bavarian is confirmed, we might be able to translate about 20 to 30 percent of the sentences with minor gaps—the rest gets lost in the dialect and through assimilation. Individual words in the diagrams will likely remain indecipherable.
I respect your attachment to your theory, but you know that several languages have been proposed?
Wouldn't it be simpler to convince non-Bavarian readers, like myself, by offering them a few sentences to read? -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 17-04-2026, 10:52 AM
I’m well aware of that; I’m familiar with most of the theories, inkluding yours
As I’ve mentioned several times before, that doesn’t make sense yet. I’ll do that as soon as the cipher is consistent enough to allow it...
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RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 18-04-2026, 09:05 AM
So I’ve delved deep into the cores, but problems are cropping up – no surprise there. I’ve now modified the transcriptions; not completely rewritten them, just made them more testable and comparable – I’ve done the same with the MHD texts. I can now test and cross-check all sorts of things at high speed. I’ve compressed the structure of the VMS into a ‘computer language’ to carry out in-depth structural tests.
The problem is: I can no longer present any of this here without going to enormous lengths to explain what I’m actually doing. I’m getting lots of results, but there’s no point in presenting them here.
That’s a bit annoying. This is what I’ll do: I’ll get in touch when I have reliable results that I can present in a comprehensible way. Tomorrow, in a week, in a month, a year (<-
) – I don’t know.
I’d roughly estimate the probability that the VMS is actually MHD/Bavarian at around 10 per cent; that sounds like a small figure, but it isn’t. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 20-04-2026, 06:04 PM
Although I can find many words using the Bavarian theory, the sentences are all very difficult to interpret. Even if that's enough for many other solvers, I can't accept it. The more I delved into the cores, the more I realised that there must be another level of organisation. I am currently searching for it. Here is a small interim result:
I was wondering whether certain VMS characters are grouped together depending on their position. To test this, I marked each space with a Roman numeral: the first space in a line is I, the second II, the third III, and so on. I divided the first word into the first glyph and the word excluding the first glyph.
I then examined which characters appear before the respective spaces – not just the single character immediately preceding it, but all characters within the token.
I also tested certain tokens (qo, aiin, ain, daiin, dy, ed, ee) as single units, because they show very strong internal binding in the data.
For each position, I calculated the proportion of each unit out of all glyphs at that position and then divided this by the unit's proportion in the entire corpus. This yields a ratio:
Even though much of this was already known, this heatmap illustrates it. That's why I wanted to publish it (without knowing whether anyone else had done so before).
1.0 = neutral, the unit appears with the expected frequency
1.0 = overrepresented at this position
< 1.0 = underrepresented
Heatmap: red = overrepresented, blue = underrepresented, white = neutral.
Conclusions that follow from this:
1. It seems that VMS lines have a position-dependent structure.
The distribution of glyphs changes systematically from the beginning to the end of the line.
2. There are at least four functionally distinct zones (nothing new, I know):
Position I (first token): Marker-dominated. p, s, d, t, r are heavily overrepresented. Other glyphs (m, ckh, cth) are heavily underrepresented.
Positions II–III: Cluster zone. sh, ch, ckh, cth, cph peak here. qo peaks in III.
Positions IV–VIII: Running text. ed, dy, aiin slightly elevated.
Positions IX–XII: Vowels and liquids dominant. a, l, m explode. sh, qo tend to disappear.
3. qo behaves like a unit, not a compound glyph.
Positionally, qo acts like a single marker. The 0.01 ratio at Pos I' (first token without its first glyph) makes that quite clear – if qo appears in the first token, it is practically always at the very start, never in the middle.
4. The aiin family (ain, aiin, daiin) also behave as units.
Positionally, they tend to act like individual structures, not like compound sequences.
5- Fixed bigrams (ee, ed, dy) are morphologically relevant.
ee is slightly elevated in the opening zone (Pos I'–III),
ed peaks in the late middle (Pos VIII),
dy rises slowly up to Pos VIII.
These three are not distributed randomly, but follow positional rules.
5. The Bank Gallows seem to form a functional class.
ckh, cth, cph (and cfh, despite the small sample size) all peak simultaneously in positions II–IV. They behave in unison.
This supports the idea that they belong together as a class, not only graphically but also in their role within the line.
6. m is the strongest positional signal in the entire VMS.
From 0.37 (pos II) to 6.10 (pos XII). The glyph "m" shows a very strong bias towards line ends (I know, this is already known, too). Not just a word-ending suffix, but something really tied to the end of the line.
What follows from this:
1. The line is a structural unit with internal grammar. This does not look like random text. There are rules governing where certain glyphs may appear.
2. This structure feels more rigid than what you'd expect from a free natural language. I haven't compared it directly against an MHG corpus with the same method yet, so take this as impression, not proof. The pattern looks very formulaic (I know, nothing new either).
3. The lines are not sentence units, so a word-for-word decipherment aimed at forming sentences will not work. It's a shame, really.
In short: lines are likely to be structured units. However, given the period in which this cipher was created, it shouldn't be too complicated.
Let's carry on
Jojo -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
Stefan Wirtz_2 > 21-04-2026, 12:55 PM
This all shows just one thing:
You cannot excel any specific language into Voynich vords.
About those „interpretations“:
senseless sentences are wrong(ly understood).
(old Latin teachers‘ wisdom)
If the „translation“ produces rubbish, one had false assumptions about some or all words. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 21-04-2026, 01:35 PM
..... -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
BerndB81 > 21-04-2026, 06:06 PM
I personally think the 'qo' is like the '+' on the last page and indicates a magic spell with nonsense pseudo latin.
For us German speakers: Could you give us an overview/table of your possible code. Which EVA letter represents what? Maybe someone can help you. This can be incomplete.
I find this interesting because it would match with the findings where the VM maybe comes from and the spelling of the words on the last page. -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
JoJo_Jost > 21-04-2026, 06:12 PM
I'm currently revising the cipher and updating it based on new findings. Then I'll publish the latest version... -
RE: Why and how the text could be Bavarian
oeesordy > 22-04-2026, 05:27 PM
(21-04-2026, 12:55 PM)Stefan Wirtz_2 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This all shows just one thing:
You cannot excel any specific language into Voynich vords.
About those „interpretations“:
senseless sentences are wrong(ly understood).
(old Latin teachers‘ wisdom)
If the „translation“ produces rubbish, one had false assumptions about some or all words.
One man's rubbish is another man's treasure