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Voynich through Phonetic Irish
- Voynich through Phonetic Irish
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RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 03:47 PM
(14-11-2025, 03:37 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-11-2025, 03:15 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By "po" you mean the word TEA in english? What is "posoj"? I'm sorry you lost me. I feel like we should talk in a way that anyone can start translating if they're reading this.
Before I get into the meat of the point here, you really do need to make an effort to learn EVA. No one is going to give you a hard time if you mess some stuff up, but "po" is the standard way to write po on here. This is especially useful because once you can transliterate a piece of Voynichese, the first font under the font selection will give Voynich characters, I did with po just a moment ago. In the meantime, identifying your Irish translation by its English gloss when trying to talk about the underlying Voynichese is going to cause confusion, and is frankly a weird way to talk about your theory even on its own terms since it's (ostensibly) Middle Irish rather than the colonial language.
This would be just about the style of your communication, except I think it's genuinely obscuring for you that the word you identified is podaiin (podaiin), not po (po) because you are engaging with it as an English, rather than Voynichese, text. There's always some room with a transcription to second-guess a space; it's a famously hard part of the manuscript. But in this case, I think most people are going to see podaiin rather than po daiin. We are not a bunch that agrees on a lot, but I think there will be near-consensus on that point
Learning EVA will also help you search transcripts, for instance the one underlying the very user-friendly You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., which will let you check to see if the Irish words you've translated are attested. Lack of attestation is not, out of hand, a problem for any one word, but if most of your words do not appear, it might be because you have missed some important features of Voynichese, which several people are trying to get you to see.
I agree with you my communication is not perfect with Voynich community. My understanding of "po" po - as a single word makes sense when you consider what follows and how I read and THE MOST commonly occurring word in the text, what I call Dhouil, spelled Irish duil.
daiin - in Irish can mean element (any created thing from the earth), it can also mean native or naturally in certain contexts and based off sound and adverb suffix I initially thought "of two, dually, secondly" -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Bluetoes101 > 14-11-2025, 03:51 PM
(14-11-2025, 03:33 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm so sorry... your logic doesn't make any sense. Why WOULD "Bark Tea" make an appearance elsewhere in the text? This was a hypothetical brought up by Stelfi. What I wrote on the paper reads TEA. BARK. WILLOW TREE. (sallow). The example I give from 54r with tea reads: TEAWATER
"And, again, could you please translate the following sentence (not from the VMS, I just made it up) into the dialect of Irish that you think the VMS Author used, and then show how he would write it with the Voynichese alphabet?
Tea of willow bark is good for stomach and liver ailments. Take one cup
daily for ten days. Willow grows in open fields and river banks.
Thank you.
All the best, --stolfi"
"TEA. BARK. WILLOW. TREE" Maybe we both have weird logic?
Could you write the requested sentence it in a way that you would be happy for it to be evaluated? It seems I didn't understand your response previously. -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 04:00 PM
Swapping the last two words (liver and heart), what I have written reads:
TEA (OF) BARK SALLOW(?)(Sallow Bark) FROM RIVER IS GOOD FOR HEART(, FOR) LIVER
(in my understanding of "Voynichese" logic) -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
rikforto > 14-11-2025, 04:02 PM
I was thinking about po as tea, and whatever reservations I have about how you arrive at that phonetic reading, there's also an etymological problem. Now, I don't have a dated etymology for Irish, though I do have it on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as coming from Amoy Chinese. I cannot imagine that arrived in Ireland well ahead of the English one from the same route. In that vein do have a date for its arrival in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., sometime in the mid-1600s, though if gotten directly from the Dutch you can push that back to 1610.
So I guess my question is: Can you account for this? Does your theory have a date for the manuscript? A period of Irish we should be looking at? -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 04:18 PM
(14-11-2025, 04:02 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was thinking about po as tea, and whatever reservations I have about how you arrive at that phonetic reading, there's also an etymological problem. Now, I don't have a dated etymology for Irish, though I do have it on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as coming from Amoy Chinese. I cannot imagine that arrived in Ireland well ahead of the English one from the same route. In that vein do have a date for its arrival in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., sometime in the mid-1600s, though if gotten directly from the Dutch you can push that back to 1610.
So I guess my question is: Can you account for this? Does your theory have a date for the manuscript? A period of Irish we should be looking at?
I can't account for that. I didn't look at the history there. The only other near equivalent for that sound for Tae= TAh, would be the word for resin which dates back much further for the area. This word also could fit with the context of both.
Tá a form of:
bí1, f. (gs. ~). Pitch, resin. S.a. OLA1. -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
rikforto > 14-11-2025, 04:46 PM
(14-11-2025, 04:18 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-11-2025, 04:02 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was thinking about po as tea, and whatever reservations I have about how you arrive at that phonetic reading, there's also an etymological problem. Now, I don't have a dated etymology for Irish, though I do have it on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as coming from Amoy Chinese. I cannot imagine that arrived in Ireland well ahead of the English one from the same route. In that vein do have a date for its arrival in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., sometime in the mid-1600s, though if gotten directly from the Dutch you can push that back to 1610.
So I guess my question is: Can you account for this? Does your theory have a date for the manuscript? A period of Irish we should be looking at?
I can't account for that. I didn't look at the history there. The only other near equivalent for that sound for Tae= TAh, would be the word for resin which dates back much further for the area. This word also could fit with the context of both.
Tá a form of:
bí1, f. (gs. ~). Pitch, resin. S.a. OLA1.
You've protested this characterization, but I am going to point out that when confronted with an etymological problem, you went back to the dictionary and offered a different choice for how to read the Voynichese. It would seem like a system based on wholly deterministic principles of phonology would not allow for this---either by avoiding the anachronism in the first place or needing revision if one were found!
Unless you have an answer to this that seriously grapples with the way you're, yes, cherry-picking from the dictionary, that's probably the end f me trying to understand your system writ-large. I'm too much of a poster to promise I won't jump back in if some detail strikes my fancy, but I don't think you fully appreciate how you're producing these translations, and until you can describe how you produced them in detail, I don't think they can be reproduced. The fact that the understanding of the text so readily shifts is proof enough of your method's arbitrariness, at least as you're presently describing it. -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 04:54 PM
(14-11-2025, 04:46 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-11-2025, 04:18 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-11-2025, 04:02 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I was thinking about po as tea, and whatever reservations I have about how you arrive at that phonetic reading, there's also an etymological problem. Now, I don't have a dated etymology for Irish, though I do have it on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. as coming from Amoy Chinese. I cannot imagine that arrived in Ireland well ahead of the English one from the same route. In that vein do have a date for its arrival in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., sometime in the mid-1600s, though if gotten directly from the Dutch you can push that back to 1610.
So I guess my question is: Can you account for this? Does your theory have a date for the manuscript? A period of Irish we should be looking at?
I can't account for that. I didn't look at the history there. The only other near equivalent for that sound for Tae= TAh, would be the word for resin which dates back much further for the area. This word also could fit with the context of both.
Tá a form of:
bí1, f. (gs. ~). Pitch, resin. S.a. OLA1.
You've protested this characterization, but I am going to point out that when confronted with an etymological problem, you went back to the dictionary and offered a different choice for how to read the Voynichese. It would seem like a system based on wholly deterministic principles of phonology would not allow for this---either by avoiding the anachronism in the first place or needing revision if one were found!
Unless you have an answer to this that seriously grapples with the way you're, yes, cherry-picking from the dictionary, that's probably the end f me trying to understand your system writ-large. I'm too much of a poster to promise I won't jump back in if some detail strikes my fancy, but I don't think you fully appreciate how you're producing these translations, and until you can describe how you produced them in detail, I don't think they can be reproduced. The fact that the understanding of the text so readily shifts is proof enough of your method's arbitrariness, at least as you're presently describing it.
No. Nothing about that is cherry picking. The words sound similar and are each spelled a variant. I typed in Teannglann TA. There is Tae and there is Tá. Listen to the dialects. There is absolutely not one single thing that is cherry picking about what I am doing. -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
rikforto > 14-11-2025, 04:59 PM
(14-11-2025, 04:54 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No. Nothing about that is cherry picking. The words sound similar and are each spelled a variant. I typed in Teannglann TA. There is Tae and there is Tá. Listen to the dialects. There is absolutely not one single thing that is cherry picking about what I am doing.
You literally went into the dictionary, picked a word that suited your approach, were directed to a problem with it, and then went back in and picked a different word that did not have that problem. There is a record of this happening upthread of this very thread for all to see. Perhaps I am being unfair interpreting it that way, but I leave that question to other interested parties on this thread because I do not think we are likely to agree about what is going on here with further back and forth -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 05:00 PM
(14-11-2025, 04:59 PM)rikforto Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(14-11-2025, 04:54 PM)Doireannjane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No. Nothing about that is cherry picking. The words sound similar and are each spelled a variant. I typed in Teannglann TA. There is Tae and there is Tá. Listen to the dialects. There is absolutely not one single thing that is cherry picking about what I am doing.
You literally went into the dictionary, picked a word that suited your approach, were directed to a problem with it, and then went back in and picked a different word that did not have that problem. There is a record of this happening upthread of this very thread for all to see. Perhaps I am being unfair interpreting it that way, but I leave that question to other interested parties on this thread because I do not think we are likely to agree about what is going on here with further back and forth
THERE ARE ONLY TWO POSSIBILITIES FOR TA.
I repeat, the spelling and phonetics between then and now ARE NOT THE SAME. Nor are the differences, consistent.
Shall I show an entire page? Or several?? -
RE: Voynich through Phonetic Irish
Doireannjane > 14-11-2025, 05:14 PM
I will also say, the reason I didn't translate the second half of the English sentence Stolfi presented, is because time is not accounted for in what I've translated so far. It's always vague like "a space of time" or "a little space of time" "a while after"