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RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 04-11-2025, 07:02 PM
(04-11-2025, 03:35 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The looped f is interesting, it's not something I noticed before.
The problem with "h" remains the descender on the right leg though. In the marginalia, we have a minim with a foot (little uptick), but as far as I know this should always be a descender, as shown in your examples as well. This is not an "h".
Note that there is an "f" on f116v, which is almost certainly the same hand, and definitely the same script. No sign of a loop here... (unless it's the faintest of hairlines)
@ Koan thx, and I'm not very familiar with page 116v either. I've looked at it several times, but I've never analyzed it. I look at the picture, and you might be right.
and sorry, I don't understand what you mean about the "h". The h here is identical to the one in the template of the example? But that is not what u mean?
At the moment, I'm analyzing the rest of the text, and there are a few vague indications that it might even have something to do with the plant on the right. But I'm still struggling with the barely legible writing.
I love such puzzles
.
For Example: At the moment I'm wondering whether the LL in the 5th word is actually a T, like this:
for:
the part after the LL could be miniet or animet
the part bevor = ora(t)??? miniet (please dye red, maybe the plant??? - The master beekeeper has been asked to dye the plant red. With bee resin???
)
And i think the second word could be abar'= abare.
the fourth word could be Her'= Herbal ?
The last word could be the abbreviation for alchemy (still very uncertain), with the word before it perhaps something like workshop of alchemy "Official(is)" or somthing like that? (still very, very uncertain;too )
And the possibility that he switched to Voynichese is also quite high.
so I am far from being sure. Does anyone have ideas in this context? -
RE: f17r
Koen G > 04-11-2025, 07:40 PM
We have to see what's written on the page and try to derive the meaning (if any) from there, not the other way around. It really helps to look at some actual manuscripts that use this style. This is more consistent than picking matches from a book that mixes different styles.
The top 25 or so entries in this spreadsheet should give you an idea: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You will see that this "t" you propose does not make much sense.
What I mean with "h" is that all examples you posted have a descender on the right leg. A descender is a line that extends below the base line. This is expected in gothic scripts of the 15th century. The stroke you would read as the right leg of "h" in "malher" does not have a descender - in fact, we can clearly see that the stroke is finished with a little upward tick. -
RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 04-11-2025, 10:02 PM
Ah, that's where the misunderstanding lies. I meant the h in “her” not in “malhar.” The h in the fourth word is the same as in the example from Fh Potsdam (line 3) — the other letters are also very similar, which is why the f with a loop would also be possible.
However, if I interpret the h in malhar as Pi, I am aware that it is too high and that it is a capital gothic P, probably to lean against the loop of the A, visually. If that were the case, a capital T would also be possible here, as it also leans against the loop of the A (see b).
But anyway, I don't want to hijack the thread here, my way of working seems to be a little different
So let's leave it at that, I'll get back to here if I manage to turn it into a grammatically correct and meaningful sentence. It's the result that counts, the path to it is often confusing .
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RE: f17r
Jorge_Stolfi > 05-11-2025, 01:21 PM
The one thing people must know before investigating the "michiton" riddle is the Big Water Stain of f116v:
The full extent of this stain (labeleed "A") is visible only in the ultraviolet images MB365UV_{007,029,037}_F, and thus it was discovered only recently. In the royal-blue images MB450RB_* only a few bits of the outline are visible, and its true extent cannot be grasped.
The ink used for text and figure outlines of the VMS is definitely not waterproof, as one can see on any page where the clumsy Painter ran over a figure outline with his brush. So the spill that created the stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. must have severely damaged any text that was written inside that area. Indeed, the outline of the stain may be defined by some of the ink that was washed away, all the way down to that line.
I used to think that the "michton" text (like the month names) was a sad attempt by the Author or some later owner to write a charm or some other text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- in some European language and European script that he had only a very rudimentary knowledge of. Like what I would produce if I had to write something in Arabic, even copying from some source. That would explain why 100+ years of concentrated efforts by paleographers have failed to identify the language and decipher the text.
But now, after seeing that stain, I have a better explanation. The "michiton" text was originally all in Voynichese. Then at some point in the last 600 years that page got soaked with water, down to the current edge of the stain. Most of the text was washed away, sparing only the aror Sheey at the start of the last line. After hastily mopping up the water (which made the damage worse) the owner at the time tried to restore the text. But he had absolutely no understanding of the Voynichese alphabet, and may have never paid any attention to that page before. So he unconsciously interpreted the few faint traces that remained as handwritten Latin letters, and retraced them as such.
Which, I think, better explains why not a single word in that text makes any sense, in any language...
The Big Water Stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. need not have happened at the same time as other stains inside the book. (I suppose that the VMS was lying on a table and someone spilled a glass of water nearby. So maybe the book had no cover at the time and the water got only under the book, or maybe it rose enough to get between the back cover and f116v.) Thus the person who tried to restore You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. need not have been any of the other "Restorers" who acted in the rest of the VMS.
As for the line marked "B" on the image above, my guess is that it is the edge of the area that, at some later time, was rubbed with chemicals in an attempt to bring out more of the faded writing. Like stain at the bottom and along the right margin of f1r. Maybe by Voynich himself, too.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 05-11-2025, 04:42 PM
As I said, once I have a coherent translation, I'll get back to you—it was quicker than I thought.
m apiar' appar' fus3 her' q(a)r AT minime [...] [...]
Magister apiarius apparat [ceram] fusam [cum] herbis; quare autem minime
Translation: The master beekeeper prepares melted wax with herbs; therefore, however, it is by no means to be used...
(I assume the herbs refer to the plant on the side.)
The two missing words at the end of the sentence cannot be translated, possibly already ProtoVoynichese
– it will probably be something like: in the Ear canal, or in the eyes, etc.
Explanations
m apiarius -> I already explained this above.
appar -> Of course, if the P in aparius is a P, then the two “LL”s in "allar" can also be P'. So simple, but it took me a long time to figure it out! With the apostrophe = apparat.
Ceram is included implicit – seems to have been common practice.
I added "cum", not necessary, but makes it easier to understand.
Her' = herbis
The q(a)r = quarem The “a” is superscripted above the r. (Lexicon abbreviaturarum page 287) if you look closely, you can see the "a" above the r (very faint).
I have already described bevor the capital AT = autem with picture (Ligatur with Capital Letters=Lexicon abbreviaturarum page 23)
minime (I'm missing a downward stroke, but such things were often sloppy)
That's all I can do.... Have fun with it
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RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 10-11-2025, 09:28 AM
I think I've managed to decipher the last two words as well.
The "o Eva T", so ot could stand for oelum. The t ligature could stand for an "E" and "L". So "oel" is short for oleum.
Then we see a clear "viol". That would make it: violet oil.
The last word is very reminiscent of "aure".
I have added [adhibendum est] these words may no longer be visible.
(Then the qr before the AT would not be qr, but pr for propter - fits better.)
= m Apiar' fus3 appar' her' pr ot viol aure
Magister apiarius (ceram) apparat fusam [cum] herbis; propterea minime oleum violarum (in) aure [adhibendum est.]
The master beekeeper prepares molten wax with herbs because violet oil should by no means be applied in the ear.
And indeed, violet oil should never be dripped into the ear, because it can irritate the eardrum and other parts, whereas wax slowly releases the herbs and would not penetrate so far into the ear. So that would be appropriate. -
RE: f17r
Dana Scott > 10-11-2025, 09:57 PM
(05-11-2025, 01:21 PM)Jorge_Stolfi Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The one thing people must know before investigating the "michiton" riddle is the Big Water Stain of f116v:
The full extent of this stain (labeleed "A") is visible only in the ultraviolet images MB365UV_{007,029,037}_F, and thus it was discovered only recently. In the royal-blue images MB450RB_* only a few bits of the outline are visible, and its true extent cannot be grasped.
The ink used for text and figure outlines of the VMS is definitely not waterproof, as one can see on any page where the clumsy Painter ran over a figure outline with his brush. So the spill that created the stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. must have severely damaged any text that was written inside that area. Indeed, the outline of the stain may be defined by some of the ink that was washed away, all the way down to that line.
I used to think that the "michton" text (like the month names) was a sad attempt by the Author or some later owner to write a charm or some other text on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- in some European language and European script that he had only a very rudimentary knowledge of. Like what I would produce if I had to write something in Arabic, even copying from some source. That would explain why 100+ years of concentrated efforts by paleographers have failed to identify the language and decipher the text.
But now, after seeing that stain, I have a better explanation. The "michiton" text was originally all in Voynichese. Then at some point in the last 600 years that page got soaked with water, down to the current edge of the stain. Most of the text was washed away, sparing only the aror Sheey at the start of the last line. After hastily mopping up the water (which made the damage worse) the owner at the time tried to restore the text. But he had absolutely no understanding of the Voynichese alphabet, and may have never paid any attention to that page before. So he unconsciously interpreted the few faint traces that remained as handwritten Latin letters, and retraced them as such.
Which, I think, better explains why not a single word in that text makes any sense, in any language...
The Big Water Stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. need not have happened at the same time as other stains inside the book. (I suppose that the VMS was lying on a table and someone spilled a glass of water nearby. So maybe the book had no cover at the time and the water got only under the book, or maybe it rose enough to get between the back cover and f116v.) Thus the person who tried to restore You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. need not have been any of the other "Restorers" who acted in the rest of the VMS.
As for the line marked "B" on the image above, my guess is that it is the edge of the area that, at some later time, was rubbed with chemicals in an attempt to bring out more of the faded writing. Like stain at the bottom and along the right margin of f1r. Maybe by Voynich himself, too.
All the best, --stolfi
I wonder if the Big Water Stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might have been the result of applying a chemical wash to the folio as was performed on f1r?
Regards,
Dana Scott -
RE: f17r
Bernd > 10-11-2025, 11:16 PM
Is that second last word really all Voynichese? The part after 'ot' looks ambiguous and more like Latin characters. Last character of that word looks like EVA 'L'. And the last word - EVA 'aim'?
I disagree that this is the effect of incorrect retracing. We have the same weird mixture of ambiguous Latin and Voynich glyphs in all marginalia. And here the script is much smaller than the regular one. -
RE: f17r
Jorge_Stolfi > 11-11-2025, 12:23 AM
(10-11-2025, 09:57 PM)Dana Scott Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I wonder if the Big Water Stain on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might have been the result of applying a chemical wash to the folio as was performed on f1r?
If it was, it was a very sloppy attempt. On page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the top of this page, it looks like the chemicals were applied with a cotton swab or something, just wetting the surface. Instead the Big Water Stain looks as if a teaspoon or more of liquid had been poured at once on the page.
All the best, --stolfi -
RE: f17r
Jorge_Stolfi > 11-11-2025, 12:57 AM
(10-11-2025, 11:16 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Is that second last word really all Voynichese? The part after 'ot' looks ambiguous and more like Latin characters. Last character of that word looks like EVA 'L'. And the last word - EVA 'aim'?
Sorry, which word are you referring to? By "first two words of the last line" I meant these:
The handwriting is a bit awkward (like that of the later Retracers) but I would say that the glyphs are all legible and definitely Voynichese, not Latin.
By the way, the last glyph on the first line is also a proper Voynichese d , not Latin. Coincidentally, it too les outside or just inside the Big Water Stain.
Quote:I disagree that this is the effect of incorrect retracing. We have the same weird mixture of ambiguous Latin and Voynich glyphs in all marginalia. And here the script is much smaller than the regular one.
By "all margnalia" you mean this text and the line at the top of page f17r? At least half of that line lies inside another "water" stain, that clearly erased whatever was in there.
The sequence of events in that case are less clear. There may have been two rounds of retracing: (1) the first round "restored" an original faded Voynichese annotation as Latin letters, (2) the water stain washed away the second half of that line, (3) a second round retouched some letters in this part but gave up on the rest.
With my Superior Pareidolia, I can even see the plume of an s over the "c" of "Malhcr", and the two loops of a t above the "ll" of "allar"...
But maybe originally there was no Voynichese or anything in that space, and the first of those Restorers just hallucinated and mistook a few smudges and scratches for faded writing.
Either way, it is remarkable that, as in f116v, not a single word in that text makes sense, in any language. A mistaken restoration is the only plausible explanation I have seen for this fact.
All the best, --stolfi