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f17r
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RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 03-11-2025, 04:19 PM
Mullier and other variants can't be correct. The second letter is clearly a capital A.
Here is a picture of it, and I have drawn what I think it is. The original is at the top and the redrawn version is at the bottom:
and itis possible, that the first L belongs to the A.
The small m is in front of the capital A, so I assume it is an abbreviation, in my case mensis (month), and then a month should follow, but there are al lot of other possibilities, without makron it could be: misce (mix) too
I would also see the symbol with the arrow as part of the L, i.e., a "h", but I also think that it is written too “modernly.”
There is a shadow at the top left, so it could be an r (could be).
This following "a" could be an ri, see the small inserted graphic on the right. But of course, that is also uncertain.
In my opinion, it is relatively clear that the apostrophe at the end of the word is an apostrophe; it is written like a small “v.” This makes it rather unlikely that it can be attributed to the letter before it. -
RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 03-11-2025, 06:38 PM
I gave this text to ChatGpt to translate.
Here is the answer - reasoned for 10m 47s !!!
mallier: a Pari’ lū̄ ⁊ hci præsentis officialis sui
in Paris, on Monday, and his official present here.
It's that simple.... 
(joke)
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RE: f17r
Koen G > 03-11-2025, 08:50 PM
Before I knew much about paleography, I also thought the second L was "h", but this is really not an option (due to the overall shape and lack of descender). I am fairly certain of m-a-l-l for the first four letters. I don't think the next one can be "r". What you draw would be r-rotunda, which does not occur after "l".
The "a" you call capital is a double-story variety, which also occurs twice on f116v, though always in a ligature. Here it is standalone though, but this still doesn't necessarily mean that it's a capital.
Spaces are unreliable overall. To me it looks like "mallier aller", but it might as well be "m al lier aller" for all I know. Separating the "m" does highlight the near-reduplication in "allier aller".
The next letter is not a clear "L", but more like a medieval "k". This makes the word harder to work with, since something derived from Latin "lux" seemed like an option. -
RE: f17r
schimmelchampagne > 03-11-2025, 10:38 PM
I'm not sure if the "mullier" post was in response to mine but I agree that the first word does not say "mullier."
To me the first vowel looks literally like an "e dans l'a," but I'm not aware of <æ> ever being written like this, despite the French name.
I see one double-story <a> in "gas/gaf" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -- where is the other?
And yes, the lux/lutz connection is why I like albor. Descendants of the Latin verb lucere can take very few subjects (sun, star...), and "dawn" is one of them. In fact, the verb can mean "to dawn" or "for day to break," and so I think albor should not be dismissed. -
RE: f17r
Jorge_Stolfi > 04-11-2025, 02:27 AM
(02-11-2025, 09:33 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Did the person writing the page numbers overlook the drawing?
That would be my guess. Since the flower is not connected to the illustration, the Folio Numberer -- who was going through the pages more or less mechanically -- must have seen it as mere noise. Even if he recognized it as a flower, he must have assumed it was just a doodle.
Which it may well be...
Or the flower may be a doodle but by a later owner, which was drawn after the folios were numbered.
All the best, --jorge -
RE: f17r
JoJo_Jost > 04-11-2025, 06:48 AM
That must be it: I have no doubt about it anymore.
Magister apiarius [....] fucus
The master of beekeeping [... ] Bee resin / Propolis
I came up with this because I couldn't figure out luc3. Then I took another close look at it:
Here you can see that there is another line running through the bottom. So it's an f. = fuc' = fucus – a completely normal reading.
And when I saw that fucus could also mean Bee resin / Propolis (in rare cases), I remembered that one of the variants I had considered for the first word was Apiarius = beekeeper (apiar' = apiarius). I had rejected it because it seemed too nonsensical to me. But with fucus = bee resin / Propolis, it suddenly makes sense, after all, we are in a botanical context. Then the "m" is Magister, which needs no macron; that is common. Magister Apriarius would probably be a teacher/master of beekeeping, for example in a monastery.
So if three of the words fit together, then the probability is very high that the translation is correct, especially since the letters also fit perfectly (the first "L" in the first word is actually part of the A).
I'll have to fiddle around with the rest a bit more, but do hve Ideas now..
@ Koan: You're right, of course, an rotunda r doesn't come after an l, but I had already expected a P in the previous version, so it would have been possible
.
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RE: f17r
Koen G > 04-11-2025, 07:45 AM
A looped f? Do you have any examples of something like that in a similar script? -
RE: f17r
Koen G > 04-11-2025, 03:35 PM
The looped f is interesting, it's not something I noticed before.
The problem with "h" remains the descender on the right leg though. In the marginalia, we have a minim with a foot (little uptick), but as far as I know this should always be a descender, as shown in your examples as well. This is not an "h".
Note that there is an "f" on f116v, which is almost certainly the same hand, and definitely the same script. No sign of a loop here... (unless it's the faintest of hairlines)