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RE: Zodiac labels
takrobat > 28-07-2025, 10:32 AM
I think my main find until now is this:
Aries in a lot of different measurements. It is internally more consistent, it uses almost just "o" prefixes. Of course, we measure much of the same things, so it's not very suprising.
I have discussed this with Claude (the LLM), and if I ignore the enthusiastic "You have solved the voynich code!!" it gives me some ideas I would like to get feedback on. This is outside my realm of expertise, even outside my realm of knowledge at all.
Claude says it is expected that Aries is less internally "complex" because it is the calculations every other zodiac is based on. So, Aries would need "original" calculations, while other zodiacs just calculated with reference to that calculation. I have tried to think of a way to measure this, but I am out of ideas. It mentions Alfonsine Tables, which I have googled and know is a real thing, but I don't find anything that fits with that either.
And of course, the possibility that this is just an artifact of how voynichese works is more than plausible. But if we assume for one minute it is not because of that, do we have any theories of why Aries is "simple" and Leo, Cancer and Sagittarius in different ways seems more complex? -
RE: Zodiac labels
takrobat > 28-07-2025, 10:36 AM
I would be interested in suggestions on what to measure. I have been thinking on using some HMM to find interesting stuff, but I actually don't have any idea on what to actually look for. I know the computer science, but I lack the linguistic and voynich domain knowledge to be able to find anything usefull, I think
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RE: Zodiac labels
oshfdk > 28-07-2025, 11:04 AM
(28-07-2025, 10:32 AM)takrobat Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And of course, the possibility that this is just an artifact of how voynichese works is more than plausible. But if we assume for one minute it is not because of that, do we have any theories of why Aries is "simple" and Leo, Cancer and Sagittarius in different ways seems more complex?
Is it possible to provide a few simple examples of how Aries is less complex than Leo? Not the charts, I have no way of understanding what they show exactly, but starting from specific labels on Aries and Leo folios. What makes Aries labels different and simpler than Leo labels? Which are the most complex Aries label and the most simple Leo label? -
RE: Zodiac labels
takrobat > 28-07-2025, 01:09 PM
(28-07-2025, 11:04 AM)oshfdk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(28-07-2025, 10:32 AM)takrobat Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And of course, the possibility that this is just an artifact of how voynichese works is more than plausible. But if we assume for one minute it is not because of that, do we have any theories of why Aries is "simple" and Leo, Cancer and Sagittarius in different ways seems more complex?
Is it possible to provide a few simple examples of how Aries is less complex than Leo? Not the charts, I have no way of understanding what they show exactly, but starting from specific labels on Aries and Leo folios. What makes Aries labels different and simpler than Leo labels? Which are the most complex Aries label and the most simple Leo label?
Simple is probably not the correct word, which is why I used "simple". It is more about being different on each side of something, but simple vs complex is the wrong word. But let me try to explain:
Aries uses almost exclusively 1 prefix: "o". This also means that the number of "phases" (a term I invented) is fewer. That also means that it has a lot of very similar words. All words in Aries contains "hard characters". Every single label contains "hard characters".
Leo on the other hand switches between prefix pretty often (which is why I chose, probably stupidly, the word complex):
ofalals
reeeos.ocfhey <- switch prefix
daiin.chcpy <- switch prefix
oteey.dchyr <- switch prefix
cheolpy <- switch prefix
okeeol <- switch prefix
and later:
<f72v3.S2.1;H> otoly.yty=
<f72v3.S2.2;H> sholeey= #switch prefix
<f72v3.S2.3;H> oky= #switch prefix
<f72v3.S2.4;H> chcthhy= #switch prefix
<f72v3.S2.5;H> loly= #switch prefix
<f72v3.S2.6;H> oeemy= #switch prefix
On the other hand, Leo is much more consistent when it comes to suffixes, with 14 of them ending with an "y suffix (not including "dy" or "aly"). So probably we would see a different "complex" vs "simple" distribution if we used that to find "phases".
When it comes to "hard characters", 32.1% of the labels in Leo contain words that do NOT contain hard characters (Only Cancer har a higher number of missing hard characters): daiin, loly, odair, oecs, oeemy, ofalals, ogeom, oreeey, reeeos
Some of these are part of multiple words, where the other part _has_ hard characters, and some are disputed when it comes to transcribing.
Anyways, my point is this:
Aries seems very different from Leo, Cancer and Sagittarius. This is the point I am trying to make.
Aries has consistent "o" prefix.
Aries does not shift "phases" (changing prefix)
Sagittarius and Cancer heavily uses "y" prefix too, aries does not use it.
Leo uses twice as many "y" as suffix as aries, sagittarius uses 4x as many "dy" suffixes as aries.
Cancer more often uses the "unifix"-prefix "ol" and "or" (meaning it is not a prefix, it is a word that can be placed many places - including as a prefix) than any other zodiac. Even though almost all Aries words start with "o", none of them starts with "ol" or "or".
I would be interested in knowing how I can make the charts more understandable. My main source of inspiration and knowledge for this is:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
And I could have misunderstood something, so please correct me if I am. And let me know if you want something specific tested
And please remember that I use the "H" transcription - the results could be a little different with another transcription. But when checking manually, it seems pretty much the same. -
RE: Zodiac labels
oshfdk > 28-07-2025, 01:26 PM
Thank you for the explanation!
Is it possible to quantify this with fewer assumptions? Maybe compute conditional entropy for Aries labels and Leo labels? I find the separation into hard and soft characters (as I understand it, all combinations of gallows and ch are hard, everything else soft?) to be somewhat arbitrary, but I haven't looked deeply into this.
(28-07-2025, 01:09 PM)takrobat Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would be interested in knowing how I can make the charts more understandable. My main source of inspiration and knowledge for this is:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The charts themselves are fine, it's just when the process of collecting and collating data for some charts is not known exactly, I consider them mostly decorative This is not to offend your work, I just prefer clean and specific examples as close to the source as possible. Which is exactly what you have just provided.