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[split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
- [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 16-05-2025, 01:51 PM
Does anybody know if Liber de simplicibus, also known as Roccabonella Herbal, housed in Biblioteca Marciana in Venice was ever digitalized. It was illustrated by Andrea Amadio, copied by Ulisse Androvaldy in 1571, who was a student of Nicoli Roccabonelli, the original author of Liber de simplicibus, which was created about 1415. It contains over 450 different plants and depictions show some alchemical features similar than the ones in the VM. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Bernd > 16-05-2025, 01:55 PM
Ricc. 2174 151 vs. VM 90v2 -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
bi3mw > 16-05-2025, 02:03 PM
(16-05-2025, 12:13 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Bulbous iris are a real thing.
Yes, there are several varieties of Iris bulbosa, Anglicana is one of them.
Depiction in the Hortus Eystettensis, Basilius Besler, arround 1613
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I don't know if there are older depictions.
(16-05-2025, 01:21 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Did you notice that Ricc. 2174 has color annotations inside the plants?
See from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
bi3mw > 16-05-2025, 02:49 PM
(offtopic)
(16-05-2025, 01:51 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anybody know if Liber de simplicibus, also known as Roccabonella Herbal, housed in Biblioteca Marciana in Venice was ever digitalized
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An interesting manuscript indeed.
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > 16-05-2025, 03:09 PM
Nice one, Bernd. Notice also how that plant has a "flat top" root. Again, there are some parallels in the attempted shading of the flowers. Might be Dioscorides again? -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
MarcoP > 16-05-2025, 07:07 PM
(16-05-2025, 01:55 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ricc. 2174 151 vs. VM 90v2
I guess it is plant #52 from the Alchemical Herbal (Mula Campana, possibly Elecampane / Inula Helenium, image from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. f.27v). But the way it is rendered in the Riccardiana ms really gives it a Voynich-like feel.
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
ReneZ > 16-05-2025, 10:37 PM
It is interesting to see that in the later Riccardiana MS the artist was not successful in consistently drawing opposite leaves. The Voynich MS is also not perfect, but comes a lot closer. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > Yesterday, 04:31 PM
Today, I saw a plant growing from a seed mixture I planted earlier. I didn't immediately recognize the plant, but the flower reminded me of the comparisons made earlier in this thread. Apparently it's White mustard (Sinapis alba), also called yellow mustard and Brassica alba. What struck me about this flower though, is that is has four "spikes" in between the arms of the cross. According to Wikipedia, that's "4 petals per flower and 4 alternating sepals".
The flowers of Eruca (bottom in the pic) are more color-appropriate though, and they have more explicit widenings at the ends of the cross arms.
So here's the weird thing. All Brassicaceae (Cruciferae) have a four petal, four sepal structure. Only in mustard they poke out to the side, while e.g. in arugula they remain closer together as part of the elongated structure under the petals. The Voynich drawing.. has both. A double set of sepals, one in the mustard fashion and one in the arugula fashion. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Bernd > Today, 12:15 AM
Mustard flowers can vary greatly in shape, depending on cultivar and age of the flower. Here's a particularly well-matching example of Brassica nigra with shorter sepals.
As you noted, the VM flower is a composite that has a 'standard' Alpha-style bulbous calyx (made of sepals) and from it emerges a full cruciform flower, again with sepals and petals. Such double calyces appear several times in the VM.
Also my impression is that in this particular flower, the 4 petals were meant to depict hollow tubes, open at the end. Possibly another misunderstanding of a shaded source image similar to the one from Ricc. 2174 (which curiously lacks sepals).
They remind me of lamiaceae which often have spots on the inside to attract pollinators. Actually the VM 'petals' look more like the calyx of a lamiaceae flower like salvia. In any case, it appears to be a mix of different plants for whatever reason. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > 10 hours ago
(Today, 12:15 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Possibly another misunderstanding of a shaded source image similar to the one from Ricc. 2174 (which curiously lacks sepals).
I think misunderstanding of an (awkwardly?) shaded source is a good option here. Also note how the flower of arugula has a prominent line going through the middle, which stops before the ends of the petals. This, plus perhaps some rendition of veining, might have given the exemplar a more three-dimensional appearance than intended. Also, the Voynich artist uses strong lines to outline the square or diamond shape at the ends. To me, these always looked like big metal nails driven into a central point.
The missing calyx from Ricc. 2174 could be explained by the fact that the lower arm of the cross is positioned in a way to obscure it. It looks to me like the idea of crosses was important to this artist (perhaps due to some vernacular name), and he drew them standing up like that.
For a Voynich calyx, that of f90v1 is particularly elongated. This again matches up well with arugula. In the real plant, the petals are mostly visible from the side, and you see two or three depending on the rotation of the flower.