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[split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
- [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > 15-05-2025, 07:17 PM
It's interesting how in Chigi, you can already see the cross taking form, but you wouldn't link it to the VM drawing if it weren't for the exaggerated shape of the Riccardiana crosses.
I guess with a lot of goodwill one could see how the Chigi root may give rise to a clawed feline with a tail after a few iterations, but that might be a coincidence. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > 15-05-2025, 08:29 PM
Something I'm often getting with this MS is that a part seems to be able to explain a Voynich plant very well, but then the rest of the plant doesn't quite match up...
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Dobri > 15-05-2025, 09:08 PM
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Bernd > 15-05-2025, 09:52 PM
(15-05-2025, 08:29 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Something I'm often getting with this MS is that a part seems to be able to explain a Voynich plant very well, but then the rest of the plant doesn't quite match up...
Absolutely.
That's why I am convinced that at least some plants are composites. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
ReneZ > 16-05-2025, 12:07 AM
It seems unavoidable to me that the 'artist' who drew the plants in the Voynich MS must have seen one or more illustrated herbals.
I also believe that he must have looked at real plants with more than just a passing interest. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Koen G > 16-05-2025, 09:31 AM
(15-05-2025, 09:52 PM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That's why I am convinced that at least some plants are composites.
Quite possibly, though I would add the disclaimer that this doesn't need to be as esoteric as it may sound.
Here's an example of literal Fleur de Lys on what appears to be an onion:
The inscription reads hermodattilo. This could be the "ermodaktylon" of the Byzantine tradition, which is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. A plant that resembles crocus somewhat, but isn't. Nowadays, Hermodactilus is a kind of Iris though: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The second inscription reads Cipolla marina - sea onion?
Anyway, my point is that this drawing is a composite between an allium and a fleur de lys. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Bernd > 16-05-2025, 10:04 AM
Cipolla marina at least nowadays is Drimia (Urginea) maritima, a medicinal plant from mediterranean shores. In Dioscorides it is depicted as Scilla.
As such, the plant is quite recognizable, though the inflorescence is greatly simplified and stylized. Many herbals only show very rudimentary flowers. The VM with its unusually large and exotic flowers clearly is an outlier here.
In the Vienna Dioscorides and Codex Neapolitanus the plant is depicted without the flowers. It generally flowers out of the ground before leaves emerge so in nature you normally won't encounter flowers and leaves together.
![[Image: csm_06-Jahrhundert_795129a1b4.jpg]](https://www.facsimiles.com/fileadmin/_processed_/8/f/csm_06-Jahrhundert_795129a1b4.jpg)
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Looking at other herbals, it would be interesting to see how the depiction of flowers evolved.
Another possibility to consider is that the plant you showed was mixed up with other Dioscorides illustrations like Pancratium maritimum (ERAKLION E PANKRATION) which is a very good match also flower-wise. In the Codex Neapolitanus, next to it we have a plant called EMEROKALLES. As far as I investigated, much debate has arisen over its identification even in medieval times. I strongly disagree with Lilium martagon in plantillustrations.org. Text-wise it probably was Hemerocallis flava which was known in Europe probably since Alexander's conquest. But the image probably also depicts Pancratium. The dried remnants of the flowers adhering to the seedpod, in the image mis-interpreted as styles, are a perfect match, as well as the white flowers.
![[Image: bDDuUaG.jpeg]](https://i.imgur.com/bDDuUaG.jpeg)
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We need to keep in mind that even in the high-end luxury herbals, illustrations were frequently switched. The text does not give much information and the authors most likely hadd never encountered these plants. They were artists, not herbalists.
Considering the VM author(s) surely had much lower quality copies, I agree that the source herbals likely contained a lot more errors and badly drawn plants. -
RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
bi3mw > 16-05-2025, 11:56 AM
(16-05-2025, 09:31 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, my point is that this drawing is a composite between an allium and a fleur de lys.
Onion Fleur-de-lys
Quote:Onion Fleur-de-lys hath long narrow blades or leaves, crested, chamfered, or streaked on the back side as it were welted; below somewhat round, opening itself toward the top, yet remaining as it were half round, whereby it resembleth an hollow trough or gutter. In the bottom of the hollowness it tendeth to whiteness; and among these teams do rise up a stalk of a cubit high; at the top whereof groweth a fair blue flower, not differing in shape from the common Fleur-de-lys: the which being past, there come in the place thereof long thick cods or seed-vessels, wherein is contained yellowish seed of the bigness of a tare or fitch. The root is round like an onion, covered over with certain brown skins or films. Of this kind there are some five or six varieties, caused by the various colours of the flowers.
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RE: [split] Voynich-like plants in Firenze Riccardiana Ricc. 2174
Bernd > 16-05-2025, 01:21 PM
Did you notice that Ricc. 2174 has color annotations inside the plants?
A - Azzurro
B - Bianco
R - Rosso
It does have some very good matches regarding simple VM flower shapes as well as leaves. I also noted some plants have red stems like in the VM.
![[Image: 5450162.jpg]](https://bugwoodcloud.org/images/384x256/5450162.jpg)