Let's rate some bulls

[DG97EEB]

I think when we are looking at the bull there is one other detail we may be missing.... Let's say he's anatomically complete, and should get a mark for ...that.....

Edit: I looked at the spreadsheet and we already do...

[eggyk]

Nice! It looks relevant.

By the way, looking at that Zodiac sequence, I'd have dated it half a century earlier. If they were done in the last quarter of the 15th century, they were exactly copied from a ca.1400-1440 model.

The style, colouring and medallions vibe most remind me of 3 manuscripts that contain the "comets" work, all from strasbourg from around 1440-1475:

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Obviously not these exact depictions. 

Edit: In fact, i guess it just reminds me of the medallions seen in almost all of the top entries. All basically from southern germany, most of them ~1430-1475. Unfortunately I couldn't find the actual justification for 1475-1500 that mandragore used.

[Koen G]

I think when we are looking at the bull there is one other detail we may be missing.... Let's say he's anatomically complete, and should get a mark for ...that.....

Edit: I looked at the spreadsheet and we already do...

This was preceded by an unusual session in the document's chat feature where I explained proper bull anatomy and the meaning of the word "You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."

Egg: those other MSS do seem related to this one (and they are among our most relevant ones). The reason why I think the Hebrew MS plugs more directly into a more antique vein is the dress on Virgo. It's the same layer of clothing that is very baggy at the elbows and closes tightly around the wrist. This is typical pre-1440 stuff. Maybe the MS being Hebrew somehow has to do with conservative copying from the exemplar?

   

[eggyk]

 Maybe the MS being Hebrew somehow has to do with conservative copying from the exemplar?

The hebrew manuscripts do seem to be in their own bubble in some respects. Unfortunately we don't have too many from the first half of the 15thC, but I know the ones from the 13th-14th centuries were using traditions different to "normal" german examples. 

For example, the use of just a bow (no shooter) for sagittarius, a weird scorpio (normally a turtle) and common mixing of aquarius and capricorn into a single illustration (or having aquarius simply be "a bucket") is something we see in hebrew manuscripts but not really in other non-hebrew works from the same time and place. 

So it wouldn't entirely surprise me if they were less likely to copy the german manuscripts around them, instead choosing to source from their own traditions where they could.

[Jorge_Stolfi]

The mouth matches nicely with taurus 2, and the raised 90° leg matches nicely with taurus 1.

Also that "inspiration source" would explain the two eyes on the same side of the head of Taurus 1...

All the best, --stolfi

[Rafal]

For example, the use of just a bow (no shooter) for sagittarius, a weird scorpio (normally a turtle) and common mixing of aquarius and capricorn into a single illustration (or having aquarius simply be "a bucket") is something we see in hebrew manuscripts but not really in other non-hebrew works from the same time and place.

It is a matter of Hebrew language and culture.

In Hebrew the word used for Saggitarius doesn't mean "an archer" but "a bow":
קֶשֶׁת (Keshet)

Also the word for Aquarius doesn't mean "a water man" but "a bucket"
 דְּלִי (Deli)

So they draw what they say.
Sometimes they draw Sagittarius as an archer but they always draw Aquarius as some bucket or a whole well.
They also like weird Scorpios as some turtle or lizard.

Some example of Hebrew zodiac below. Signs are in a non-standard order. The big well at the top is Aquarius. Notice the very Voynich like Scorpio at 9 o'clock.
   

[DG97EEB]

Very interesting..  I keep coming back to Ashkenazi jews leaving Germany and studying and working in Italy, whether in Padua or even Siena. It resolves a lot of contradictions quite nicely, but i can't quite make it work, but posts like Rafal's remind me why i shouldn't give up..

[MarcoP]

Signs are in a non-standard order. The big well at the top is Aquarius. Notice the very Voynich like Scorpio at 9 o'clock.

They are grouped by planetary ruler, as shown by the seven radial segments inside the circle.

Saturn: Capricorn, Aquarius
Moon: Cancer
Mercury: Gemini, Virgo
Venus: Taurus, Libra
Sun: Leo
Mars: Aries, Scorpio
Jupiter: Sagittarius, Pisces