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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  Bernd > 20-12-2024, 01:05 AM

  Giovannino de Grassi's workshop predates the VM but operated well within the VM timeframe under his son. While not especially close to the VM these might have been precursors. Grassi's image studies were famous. Interestigly this was pretty much the pinnacle of medieval art, most later artworks were much cruder.
  
  By the way, according to Wikipedia, some images of the Tacuinium sanitatis are derived from Codex Palatinus 586 (Circa instans) and [i]Codex Casanatensis 459.[/i]
  
  [i]BNF Latin 9333[/i] was created 1445-51

• RE: Khalkotauroi

  Koen G > 20-12-2024, 10:51 AM

  There's a good chance that if you went looking for the origins of "upright neck + lyre-shaped horns", you'd end up in 14th century France again. I think the line of transmission went:
  
  pre-15thC France --> some unknown "Germanizing" source --> VM 
  
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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  R. Sale > 20-12-2024, 08:49 PM

  Considering just the lyre-shaped horns, there is an interesting term in heraldry called a 'massacre'. A pair of horns or antlers connected by a small piece of skull or scalp.
  
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  And in it, the two examples of Buffalo and Bull (2) are lyre-shaped horns. What kind of buffalo has lyre-shapd horns?
  
  In heraldic usage there are some examples, where lyre-shaped horns <or fish> were used in heraldic crests. The horns are only in the crest, and not on the shield. The usage is frequent enough to become a standard pattern.
  
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  There may also be a bull's head in the crest and not on the shield [Cleves/Kleve?]
  
  Another potential source for comparison might be the bull avatar of St. Luke, if that image might have lyre-shaped horns and some interesting provenance.

• RE: Khalkotauroi

  Koen G > 20-12-2024, 10:00 PM

  It's possible, we would need to look into that. Define lyre shaped, start looking for early attestations, track its evolution. Simultaneously track when the neck became shaped like that of a deer or horse. See where they intersect.
  
  All the while keep an eye out for leg joints bending the wrong way. This may be a VM mistake, but may also be copied from somewhere. Probably the former, but you never know.

• RE: Khalkotauroi

  R. Sale > 20-12-2024, 11:46 PM

  The Ox of St. Luke
  
  Provenance keeps getting newer. It has the horns. How's the neck?
  
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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  Koen G > 21-12-2024, 12:43 AM

  I wouldn't say it has the horns. If I was at my computer I'd show you a side by side. Those in the VM are longer and closer together. 
  
  It should basically look like a fat deer with long, curved horns instead of antlers.

• RE: Khalkotauroi

  R. Sale > 21-12-2024, 01:13 AM

  Two sets of images, one for: Bull; one for: Ox.
  
  Several interesting examples to look at more closely.
  
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  Also;
  
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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  Dana Scott > 21-12-2024, 03:17 AM

  (21-12-2024, 01:13 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Two sets of images, one for: Bull; one for: Ox.
  
  Several interesting examples to look at more closely.
  
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  Also;
  
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  Maremma Cattle in Tuscany appear to be good models for Bestiary artwork:
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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  bi3mw > 22-12-2024, 05:31 PM

  (20-12-2024, 12:05 AM)Bernd Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.....
  Apparently the beautifully illustrated copies were originally created for Northern Italian nobility around 1400. the Rhineland copy is a little later. Here's a list of Tacuinium sanitatis copies
  ....
      Biblioteca Casanatense, Ms 459; c. 1400, Milan(?), Lombardy region, Italy.
  ....

  
  I stumbled across Ms. 459 by chance. The depiction of the animals is really beautiful. But I couldn't find an ox in a hurry.
  
  Historia Plantarum, Ms. 459, Italy, End of the 14th century 
  Alternative Titles
      Medizinische Enzyklopädie Kaiser Wenzels
      Tacuinum sanitatis
      Casanatense Tacuinum Sanitatis
  
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  Video:
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• RE: Khalkotauroi

  R. Sale > 22-12-2024, 05:44 PM

  The top of 40v has two good ones.
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