The Voynich Ninja

As I recall, the bronze, fire-breathing bulls were in the story of Jason and the Argonauts. Interesting to note the lyre-shaped horns and the green paint over the leaves in the trees.

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Interesting provenance as well.

My question is, how can that scimitar fit in that scabbard?

(19-12-2024, 08:03 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Interesting provenance as well.

Quote:Ms. germ. fol. 1 was produced around 1445 in the workshop of Diebold Lauber in Hagenau (Alsace).

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I know a Lauber bull when I see one! You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Very nice.

Title of the illustration:
(Ger.) Jason zerstört einen ehernen Ochsen / Jason destroys a bronze ox

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Thanks to all. I just took @nablator's advice and started wandering around. Of course, it's all about the lyre-shaped horns, and there's the Lauber connection, from Koen's work back in 2018. Is there something more current?? The illustration is in an odd location, but it really is a ringer.

Lyre-shaped horns are still a topic for further investigation. My bull beats your bull, if you catch my drift.

What's been happening with the horns lately?  Anything?

There's the horns, but also the way the neck angles up, like that of a deer. Not bull-like at all, but pretty Voynich-like.

My point of view remains that Lauber must have gotten these images from a source similar to that of the VM. I do not believe the line of transmission went Lauber>Voynich. More like a common ancestor, which remains to be pinpointed.

Here's something from first quarter 15th C.
BNF Latin 9333

Has lyre-shaped horns, but does not look like a deer.

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Source says 'Rhineland'  - so it's close geographically.

Nice, I missed that while browsing images of the Tacuinium sanitatis recently!
I would like to add that the Tacuinium sanitatis also has a link to the Tree-and-Vine of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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Apparently the beautifully illustrated copies were originally created for Northern Italian nobility around 1400. the Rhineland copy is a little later. Here's a list of Tacuinium sanitatis copies

    BNF Nouvelle acquisition latine 1673; 1390-1400 or 1380-90, Pavia or Milan, Lombardy region, N. Italy.
    Bibliothèque de l'Université de Liège, Ms. 1041; 1380-1400, Veneto region, Italy.
    Österreichische Nationalbibliothek - ÖNB, Cod. Ser. N. 2644 Han; 1390-1400, Lombardy region, Italy.
    Biblioteca Casanatense, Ms. 4182; 1390-1400, Lombardy region, Italy.
    Biblioteca Casanatense, Ms 459; c. 1400, Milan(?), Lombardy region, Italy.
    Biblioteca del hospital Real, Universidad de Granada, Ms C67 [BHN/Caja A-001]; 1440-1445, Italy.
    BNF, Latin 9333; 1445-1451, Rhineland, Germany.
    Bibliothèque municipale, Rouen, Ms. 3054 [formerly Leber 1088] and other half in a private collection in Liechtenstein; 1450s.
    New York Public Library, Spencer Collection ms. 65; 1460 or c. 1470, Lodi region or Ferrara(?), Italy.
    BNF, Italien 1108; 1470-1475, Lodi region, Italy.
    Österreichische Nationalbibliothek - ÖNB, Cod. 5264 Han [formerly Med. 2]; 1470-1475, Lodi region, Italy.
    Bibliothèque Internationale de Gastronomie, Lugano, Ms. 15; 1470-1475, Lodi region, Italy.
    ÖNB, Ms. 2396 [formerly Eug. Q. 59]; 1476-1500, Venice, Italy.

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I got stuck looking at the image sources of the Tacuinium itself at some point but it is connected to other herbals and calendars and books of hours already mentioned in connection with the VM. I think in the end it's all one big network, all the sources are interconnected.

The early copies were created by the workshop of Giovannino de Grassi which might be worth looking into if nobody already has. His workshop also made the Visconti Book of Hours (Biblioteca Nazionale MSS BR 397 e LF 22) between 1389 and 1430.
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However I am still convinced we must separate text from images and that manuscripts were often created by compiling texts from scrolls and images from pinakes or other stock image collections, much like today. This also explains glitches (copying the wrong plant or repurposing an image in a different context like Gemini). Is there any literature about how a Lauber-style workshop operated? I only know about the early Dioscorides copies and there the scientific consensus was that workshops used text from scrolls and images from large wooden boards when compiling a book. There were not copied from other books but recompiled from scratch which was much more efficient. Many people could simultaneously work on text fragments and stock images instead of a single scribe copying an existing book page by page, making it inaccessible to others for a long time period.

I also would not rule out that the creator(s) of the VM had access to an image collection rather than a collection of books.

It would be interesting to compare that bull to the ones in the earlier Tacuinums. Can't check now, I'm on my phone.

Also, this MS feels later than 1425, I wouldn't be surprised if that date is incorrect.

Bernd: the question about Lauber's sources is one that vexed me greatly in the past. These guys churned out manuscripts at an unprecedented rate and they copied readily from available sources, reused characters, poses etc.

It's important to keep in mind that Lauber built his workshop on the legacy of an earlier, more mysterious one in Haguenau. This probably deserves more research, as they were closer in time to the VM.

Still it's all very complex, and it's quite possible that Lauber got his hands on the sources that interest us at a later date.