- Options
- Login
- Desktop Style
Options
Khalkotauroi
- Khalkotauroi
-
RE: Khalkotauroi
Koen G > 22-12-2024, 07:15 PM
Good ones? That's quite the understatement. (I do feel like we must have discussed this one before though).
The similarities are so many that this image should be used as one of the "benchmarks" to determine which variables are typical:
- Hilly terrain
- some shrubbery to give rise to a possible "basket" reinterpretation
- wide-eyed expression with both eyes looking at us (this is unclear in the darker bull).
- further front leg raised
- facing left
- neck upright like a deer or horse
- lyre-shaped horns
- both draw dewclaws, but perhaps in a different style
- there is not a "roll" of hair on the forehead, but rather just some tufts. Although the light bull has nothing.
Differences are:- wrong color
- back legs are anatomically correct (I still think this is likely a mistake introduced by the VM artist)
- horns aren't excessively long
- pointed ears vs rounded ears
- tail between the legs vs. behind the body
- the tail of the VM bull is strangely split at the end
- there is something weird going on in the genital area. The Ms. 459 bull correctly has this tuft in the middle (this is where the penis comes out when the bull is aroused), but no testicles (maybe it's an Ox). The VM bulls have a pointy penis (?) where the testicles should be.
What did I miss?
Any other proposed bulls can be put through this checklist and like that you can track where the properties come from and where they converge. - Hilly terrain
-
RE: Khalkotauroi
R. Sale > 22-12-2024, 09:26 PM
Well, one of my questions, when I found the Lauber, was about the status of this investigation. There is some info on the forum, but it was not recent.
Two additional points of emphasis for me: 1) the faces of various examples range from deer-like to bovine to a sort of hyper-bovine - the VMs tends toward deer-like; 2) long vertical horns with long horn tips - with the depiction of animals there is variation. In the representation of heraldic crests, long tips are pretty consistent. Other heraldic borrowings have been found in the VMs.
Looking through the four photo galleries in Post #17, there are over 100 widely varied images, with a bit less than 1/5th clearly showing lyre-shaped horns, several of which are labelled in the text. Each image has a source and most sources have good provenance. Nearly all of the sources for lyre-shaped horns (LSH) are early. Either 13th and early 14th C. from France (3), England (3) or Netherlands (1), or they date c. 1350 with France (2), Flanders (1). Then there is nothing until c. 1440 - and it's an Italian herbal (B L Sloane 4016) [Ox: #21 & Buffalo #13] from Lombardy. The newest one is second half of the 15th from Flanders with a body that looks like a moose.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Bull #2: France (Cambrai), 1270-1275
A good boddy - wrong horns.
Bull #11: France (Toulouse), ca. 1350
Bull #34: Flanders ca. 1350
Revised: Tried to link specific images, apparently it needs to start at #1.
Is it necessary for an Italian influence to be present to get the VMs bulls? -
RE: Khalkotauroi
Koen G > 22-12-2024, 10:07 PM
Well there isn't really any ongoing investigation that I know of, but I could set something up and coordinate. We would also have to look at previous research and put them through this more detailed checklist. If a few people are interested in helping out, this may lead to new insights. -
RE: Khalkotauroi
R. Sale > 22-12-2024, 10:50 PM
Examples to fill in from 1350 to 1440 are needed. -
RE: Khalkotauroi
R. Sale > 23-12-2024, 03:15 AM
Oh, and @Koen.
There is another heraldic term: pizzled.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
It isn't usually drawn. Not necessarily a different tincture. However, when it is drawn and represented in a contrasting color, then it *is* noted as such. In the bear sable, armed, langued and pizzled gules - armed for the claws, langued for the tongue, and pizzled for - you guessed it.
A more typical representation of form and similar to the VMs bulls.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Khalkotauroi
Koen G > 23-12-2024, 09:27 AM
Well the remarkable part is not so much that there's a pizzle, but rather that it's anatomically in the wrong place
For reference:
-
RE: Khalkotauroi
Koen G > 23-12-2024, 09:30 AM
By the way, by which objective criterium would you assess "deer face"? -
RE: Khalkotauroi
MarcoP > 23-12-2024, 11:20 AM
This is probably irrelevant, but it could be that the raised front leg is connected with how Ptolemy saw the constellation. These two images are from Basel, Universitätsbibliothek / You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ("Scholia Basileensia", 9th Century) and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1515).
I can see of no reason why Casanatense, Ms 459 should include an astrological motif, so the pose could likely be due to other reasons as well.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are always handy for comparing images of constellations.
Most of the illustrations only show the forward half of the Bull (consistently with Ptolemy). But there are a few full figures as well, e.g. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Lombardy, 1447).
-
RE: Khalkotauroi
bi3mw > 23-12-2024, 11:56 AM
Here is an ox from the other Casanatense manuscript. The illustration is very similar to the one shown by @R. Sale in BNF Latin 9333. It would be worth checking whether this is a “standard theme” in the Tacuinium sanitatis.
Biblioteca Casanatense, Ms. 4182; 1390-1400, Lombardy region, Italy.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
BNF, Latin 9333, 1445-1451, Rhineland, Germany.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.