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Matching planet labels
- Matching planet labels
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RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 14-10-2023, 12:28 PM
(13-10-2023, 06:07 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Looking forward to your summary!
My estimation hasn't changed, I think I'll post it later today
It's just the pictures take a bit longer than I expected, but what is the use of a post without pictures or conversation? -
RE: Matching planet labels
R. Sale > 16-10-2023, 05:44 AM
Seeking more information on provenance of diagrams using the 4-1-1-1 pattern.
The original article in Post #1 cites this source from 1508 Colonia [Köln]:
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Post #6 adds this source from 1494 Leipzig:
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To what extent is this particular astrological arrangement a 'German' phenomenon??
Leipzig printer Martin Landsberg has several editions listed in the 15th Century and in 1501-1550.
Plus others in Leipzig.
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Köln printer Heinrich Quentell, sons - and others show editions between 1501 and 1520.
Which - if any - of these other editions shows the desired structure? -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 16-10-2023, 07:50 AM
(16-10-2023, 05:44 AM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.To what extent is this particular astrological arrangement a 'German' phenomenon??
Which - if any - of these other editions shows the desired structure?
I'm certainly not equipped to answer these questions, but I have to note, that I mostly used the online collection of Bayerische Staatsbibliothek when looking for relevant medieval texts. It has excellent full text search capabilities for scanned books, even handwritten ones. It's affected by the same problems as other modern OCR systems (like confusing infix 'ſ/s' with an 'f'), but overall works very well, allowing you to search the full text even for some of XIII century works and get picture snippets of all matches.
So, it's possible that German sources are overrepresented in my findings, as obviously there should be a large proportion of German works in Bayerische Staatsbibliothek. -
RE: Matching planet labels
R. Sale > 16-10-2023, 08:14 PM
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RE: Matching planet labels
R. Sale > 16-10-2023, 08:37 PM
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RE: Matching planet labels
R. Sale > 16-10-2023, 10:49 PM
The 1502 edition listing references the Leipzig printers Landsberg and Kachelofen.
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Same cosmic pattern, slightly different printed text. Also has labels.
Here is another example: 1516 Nürnberg
Sphera materialis
Nürnberg: Iobst Gutknecht, 1516
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So, not all German editions were using the same pattern of planetary arrangement. Not seeing an astrological connections here either.
While it is possible to put all the planets in their primary houses, that does not create the 'four in a row' pattern. Meanwhile, the Leipzig editions have the desired pattern, but they are from the end of the 15th century and early 16th, rather than in the first half of the 15th. We'll see what else turns up. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 17-10-2023, 03:49 AM
(16-10-2023, 08:37 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This example from Venice 1501 used a different pattern arrangement with strong astrological connections.
Sphaerae mvndi compendivm foeliciter inchoat.
Venetiis : Io. Baptista Sessa, 1501
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This one is very interesting, it uses clockwise Zodiac, something that I was looking for, as it was required for one of the possible interpretations.
Other than that, it appears to list the planets in their domiciles in a 3 + 4 pattern (Mercury, Moon, Sun, empty alt Mercury domicile, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn). Note that this arrangement would be impossible in the sky, it puts Mercury two signs away from the Sun. I find the arrangement in the German editions to be more sophisticated (with the same pattern as in VMS), because it manages to show the planets in their domiciles in a configuration that is possible in reality. It's interesting why most charts insist on putting Mercury in an odd slot. The logic for this seemed clear in the German editions with their pattern, but I don't understand why do this here. They could have just put Mercury in Virgo and get 7 in a row pattern, as shown in "Mixed domiciles" arrangement below. -
RE: Matching planet labels
oshfdk > 17-10-2023, 04:10 AM
(16-10-2023, 10:49 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 1502 edition listing references the Leipzig printers Landsberg and Kachelofen.
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Same cosmic pattern, slightly different printed text. Also has labels.
There is a lot of handwriting in this example, I wonder what it says. I cannot make out a single word (my Latin is rudimentary, my German is almost non-existent).
(16-10-2023, 10:49 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
While it is possible to put all the planets in their primary houses, that does not create the 'four in a row' pattern. Meanwhile, the Leipzig editions have the desired pattern, but they are from the end of the 15th century and early 16th, rather than in the first half of the 15th. We'll see what else turns up.
It is possible, I've listed two example configurations like this in the image above, taken from my text, but all domicile configurations that do not create a 4 in a row pattern create something that cannot happen in the sky: they put Mercury farther from the Sun than it can get (maximum angle between the Sun and Mercury is 28°, if I remember correctly, and one Zodiac sign is 30° wide). This fact was well known to astronomers since Zodiac was defined in its present 12x30° form.
As a non-essential pedantic side note: this would be different if we talked about houses, like modern Placidus house system, as defined in the XVIII century, or maybe some intermediate version based on old Hellenic houses. Since houses are of unequal widths, it is barely possible for Mercury and the Sun to be two houses apart. But the diagrams in all editions of Sacrobosco clearly refer to Zodiac signs and domiciles and not to a house system. And I haven't found any visible indication of any house chart patterns in f67r2 chart either. -
RE: Matching planet labels
Aga Tentakulus > 17-10-2023, 07:59 AM
No idea what they are looking for. But here is an example from Africa/Arab world/Mali/ Universität Timbuktu. around 1449.