• Options
• Login
• Desktop Style

f68r3

• Index

  • The Voynich Ninja
  • Voynich Research
  • Astronomy
  • f68r3
• f68r3

• RE: f68r3

  RenegadeHealer > 29-06-2023, 04:35 PM

  The origin of dragons, at least as idea and symbolism, is a pretty deep and fun rabbit hole, that I've only explored briefly. I happen to subscribe to the theory that dragons (as modern day humans imagine them) originate in a collective, handed-down memory of a large avian predator that preyed upon early Stone Age humans, until we developed the technology to hunt them to extinction.
  
  Back in college, I remember reading a few sources that linked Chinese dragons to a personification of any sort of "stripe" in the sky, whether a long thin cloud formation like airplane exhaust, or the visible front of an approaching storm. But this visual metaphor rests in turn on the same collective memory of a large, dangerous bird / reptile / dinosaur-like creature shared by pretty much all of humanity. Pretty sure I've even seen the Chinese dragon, when used as a visual motif and a sine wave undulating live dance performance, compared iconographically to our beloved Wolkenband / nebuly line. I digress. My point is, the use of dragons and dragon-themed pareidolia as symbols for happenings in the sky has a pretty rich history. And probably a rich prehistory too; Mythological themes like a dog guarding the underground world of the dead and the tree of life are common to scripture and folklore the world over. I think the idea of a dragon flying across the sky, and bringing sudden changes to the sky and everything in it in its wake, is one of these deepest of memes. And that being the case, I'm imagining its precise origin, in place and time, being pretty hard to trace. For all we know, the Eclipse Dragon and its relation to the Moon and the Pleiades was part of the mythology of the Ancient North Eurasians, of Paleolithic Lake Baikal.
  
  Marco, if I ever find myself in India again, and I'm feeling some serious Robert Langdon or Indiana Jones vibes, I plan to pay a visit to the temple that houses that restored painting, if at all possible. I'd like to obtain high quality images of it, and would be willing to pay for them. I'd also want to get recordings of locals talking about what they know about this painting, its history and iconography. Because like taking a medical history from a patient, what they say may or may not be true, but it's full of valuable clues regardless. There's a reason they said what they said, the way they said it. If life and travel have taught me anything, there's at least one humble, unassuming, not worldly or formally schooled, absolute character of a local, whose only accomplishment in life is knowing absolutely everything there is to know about this [interesting piece of local culture].

• RE: f68r3

  MarcoP > 24-01-2025, 11:29 AM

  A few comments about the image You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The image is part of  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a hausbuch / housebook written around 1450. Here I processed the image to increase contrast:
     
  
  The manuscript includes a collection of medical and astrological works, as well as a treaty about geomantic divination. Similar contents can be found in the Tubingen Hausbuch (Md 2).
  
  The diagram posted by Koen represents the constellations and appears at the end of a section where each constellation is individually illustrated and described. The center of the diagram is labelled “terra” (earth). The next four circles for the elements are only labelled with German color annotations for the corresponding colors (that were never painted). I cannot read the first one, the other three are grun=green (water), blau=blue (air), rot=red (fire). Then there are circles for the seven planets, again with color annotations. A much wider circle represents the constellations and the outer circle is marked with the zodiac signs (in counterclockwise order) EDIT: the corresponding Galenic humours and numbers for the 28 lunar mansions.
  
  In the diagram, the constellations are (mostly) marked by a small circle with an asterisk inscribed into it. They are labelled in Latin. Both Northern (e.g. Draco, Cassiopea, near the top) and Southern constellations are included. The constellations are arranged according to the zodiac signs which appear on the outer circle.
  The “wavy line” at the bottom of the diagram represents the Southern constellation Hydra (labelled “Idere”); the label was written next to a snake’s head that appears here instead of the usual asterisk. Next to the middle of Hydra’s body, there’s a constellation labelled “urna” (jar) corresponding to Crater. Another nearby constellation is labelled something like "coroum"[?] (it could be "corvus", the crow). (bottom image from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
  
     
  
  On the left side, another fainter line starts from the Auriga constellation (here labelled with the frequent alternative name “agitator”) and is almost parallel to the inner circle. This is harder to interpret: I guess it could represent the Milky Way, but I am not aware of illustrations where it was drawn.
  
  The Tubingen Hausbuch also includes diagrams of the constellations arranged according to the zodiac (also here shown counterclockwise). The constellations are split into two different circles for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and are fully illustrated by the usual figures.

• RE: f68r3

  Koen G > 24-01-2025, 02:23 PM

  Thanks, Marco! At first glance I couldn't make heads or tails of the lines. What an unusual choice to emphasize Hydra like that. Although it is the largest constellation, so I guess it makes sense.
  
  I'm just looking at your image on my phone, but might the other line have originally been Draco between the Ursae? I think I see something along the lines of Ursa Major/Minor in the bottom one.

• RE: f68r3

  MarcoP > 24-01-2025, 02:42 PM

  Hi Koen, the diagram is rather messy and unclear. I see that Draco is labelled at the top, left of the Triangle constellation. Left of Hydra there's Canis Minor and maybe Majus too, further left. I plan of transcribing all these labels at some point, but there are too many interesting things going on and I haven't found the time yet.

• RE: f68r3

  MarcoP > 25-01-2025, 05:28 PM

     
  
  I transcribed the constellation names in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Some were hard to read, but luckily they also appeared in the red titles of the preceding pages. Many names are corrupted and I may have made some minor errors, but I think that all constellations can be identified. I list here the most obscure labels (clockwise from the top):
  
  Joculator (the Jester): Allen (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 1963) mentions it as part of Sagittarius
  
  Clein hunt: Kleiner Hund, Canis Minor in German.
  
  Vespertilius (the Bat): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says it’s a name for Antares
  
  Volucris (the Bird) is a name for Cygnus. But Cygnus also appears with the German label “Swan”. EDIT: I guess here the Bird corresponds to Aquila (the Eagle).
  
  Puteum Abyssi (the Abyssal Pit): You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. identifies this as Ara / the Altar.
  
  Astronatus (untranslatable: “born from the stars”?). You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that “Astronochus” could be a name for Sagittarius. The name also appears in Universitätsbibliothek You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1490 ca) - the manuscript has a similar section illustrating individual constellations.
  
  Agitator (the Charioteer): a name for You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
  
  Pullus (the Chicken): I couldn’t find any reference for this. My guess is that it is a corruption of “Pollux”, one of the two Twins.
  
  
  The illustrated chapter about the constellations that ends with the diagram includes You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (wisse weg). Possibly, this could support the idea that the line linked with “Agitator” also represents the Milky Way.
  
     

• RE: f68r3

  Koen G > 26-01-2025, 03:12 AM

  Thanks, Marco! This is a very weird and messy diagram indeed. A joculator and no bears?
  
  Imagine if the Voynich star diagrams are like this and then people basing their whole Theory on the labels.

• RE: f68r3

  MarcoP > 26-01-2025, 10:47 AM

  (26-01-2025, 03:12 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, Marco! This is a very weird and messy diagram indeed. A joculator and no bears?
  
  Imagine if the Voynich star diagrams are like this and then people basing their whole Theory on the labels.

  
  Hi Koen,
  Voynich-wise, the diagram at least points out that most of the labels are simple variants of the ordinary Latin names for the constellations. Some of the problems are:

  • The North-South position (Declination) of the constellations appears to be ignored. I highlighted in green all Southern constellations, hoping that they would align near the center or the border of the diagram, but this is not the case.
    
  • Some German labels are mixed with the Latin ones.
    
  • As you say, some constellations are missing and others are unusual.
    

  
     
  
  Going for an exact match of positions with any Voynich diagram seems hopeless, since the Voynich diagram could be similarly inaccurate. At most, one could consider only positions with respect to zodiac signs (e.g. Serpentarius, Cygnus, Andromeda, Perseus and  Agitator appear in the correct order). But possibly the safest approach would be just trying to match the set of labels, ignoring all positions.
  
  I highlighted in red the rectangle formed by Cygnus (the Swan), Delphinus, Volucris (the Bird), Lyra. If one interprets Volucris as Aquila (the Eagle), a vaguely similar shape can be recognized in the Karlsruhe diagram.
  
  Finally, a picture of a celestial globe shows how the Milky way connects Agitator with Canis Maior and Navis. As I wrote above, I speculate that this could be the meaning of the red line going downward from Agitator in the Karlsruhe diagram (but I have no idea why only this segment of the Milky Way should have been drawn).
  
     

• RE: f68r3

  Juan_Sali > 29-01-2025, 05:33 PM

  (24-01-2025, 11:29 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then there are circles for the seven planets, again with color annotations

  I think they are the colors of the rainbow 
  1 iris (rainbow) 2 blau (blue) 3 grun (green) 4 gel (yellow) 5 rot (red) 6 braun (brown) 7 svarz (black)
• Next Oldest Next Newest