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[split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

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• [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Helmut Winkler > 20-07-2022, 08:53 AM

  . Has anyone ever seen a headless eagle in heraldry? Not to mention all the other missing body parts. If anyone finds a headless eagle - or a Flug, for that matter - in heraldry, esp. prior to 1500, that would be interesting.
  
  
  
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  Not that I think these roots are an eagle, but there are headless eagles, a good example are the smallarms of Nürnberg

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  DONJCH > 20-07-2022, 03:51 PM

  (19-07-2022, 08:48 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If someone has a copy of Curse, it would also be interesting to read what Nick wrote about this, and which image he referred to.

  
  Koen,
  
  I have Curse right in front of me. P96
  
  "Many of the other roots are far stranger. One bifolio contains a plant with a snake-like root, and another plant with an eagle-like root. The former is reminiscent of the Visconti heraldic snake, used extensively by both Viscontis and Sforzas, while the latter was tentatively identified in 2003 by Voynich researcher Dana Scott as being derived from the coat of arms of the province of Novara - one of Milan's satellite towns.
  
  This seems, almost uniquely, to be what might be called cryptoheraldry - hidden heraldry. The only analogous example I have found anywhere is in Averlino's libro, which describes imaginary heraldic devices decorating the gates of a fictional labyrinth. According to Valentina Vulpi's thesis (pp.149-150), these appear to have been constructed out of the Sforza family's existing heraldry, in broadly the same anagramming way that Averlino used to form fictional names out of real names."
  
  The pic is similar to others posted earlier but not identical, will try to scan but it's a bit small and in the gutter.
  Closest is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Stemma Ufficiale on the right from bi3mw
  The pic in Curse lacks most of the skinny "featherlets", yet still 5 main feathers up and four down.

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  R. Sale > 20-07-2022, 07:25 PM

  So, here's a tricky question. If the VMs roots *are* interpreted as an eagle, how are we to know if it is a regular eagle or a headless eagle??
  
  Here is the connection:
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  And the guy was a heraldry specialist. 
  
  So, if the VMs wings to eagle interpretation is 'cryptoheraldry", then going to a headless eagle is crypto-cryptoheraldry.
  
  Could someone c. 1600 create the VMs?
  
  Or could it be that a Flug is just a Flug? Still too few examples with early dating.
  
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  PS: And even more interesting:::
  
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  "A pair of wings may be conjoined: this was considered artist’s license, as the same arms could be drawn either with the wings conjoined or separate. A pair of wings displayed and conjoined may also be blazoned a “vol”, the French term for the motif; this is seen in the arms of von Hohenfels, 1606 [Siebmacher 140]." 
  
  Herr Siebmacher did the von Hohenfels coat-of-arms. Wonder what that looks like???
  
  PPS: And here it is"
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• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Ruby Novacna > 21-07-2022, 07:15 AM

  (20-07-2022, 07:25 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, here's a tricky question. If the VMs roots *are* interpreted as an eagle, how are we to know if it is a regular eagle or a headless eagle??

  We probably won't find out right away.
  However, is there any reason why we are allowed to interpret some of the roots as wings, but forbid to interpret the other part as legs and tail and to interpret the leaves as heads and the flowers as a diadem?

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  DONJCH > 22-07-2022, 10:25 AM

  (21-07-2022, 07:15 AM)Ruby Novacna Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, is there any reason why we are allowed to interpret some of the roots as wings, but forbid to interpret the other part as legs and tail

  
  Ruby,
  
  In my opinion the wings fit the available heraldic images rather well but the tail is a mess and the legs are even worse, indeed missing, so I don't know why everybody seems to be so focussed on the head.

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Aga Tentakulus > 29-07-2022, 07:01 PM

             
  
  My guess about this plant is that it would be a classic medicinal plant.
  It is already mentioned by "Pedanios Dioskurides" in "De materia medica".
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  Interestingly, the plant has the same name in Greek, Latin and German.
  
  This is what the roots would look like in real life.
  
  Now you can think about heraldry.

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Searcher > 30-07-2022, 12:35 PM

  In 2016, I made this comparison (the VMs, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - to the Rylands German MS 1, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (first half of the XV c.)):
     
  This comparison was in my first, now disabled, blog. I actuallly thought I mentioned it on the forum, but looking through my attechments, I found that I didn't. My attention though was concentrated not especially on the shape of feathers, but on the general symbolism: the roots - an eagle, the two stalks - two heads, the seven crown-shaped blossoms - seven crowns.
  As for the eighth blossom, I saw it like this one above the rest seven (from  BSB Cgm 598, after 1467, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.):
     
  I don't understand the text, but I think the eighth crown represents all the seven crowns in one.
  A page with with the image of seven crowns doesn't present in Rylands version. Dresden Ms. N. 110 (second half of the 15th Cent., 1492?) shows just seven crowns (alchemywebsite):
  
  For the note, the later more extend versions with more images are probably copied from the Nuremberg (or Kadolzburg) version dated to 1433 (Barbara Obrist).

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  bi3mw > 30-07-2022, 12:59 PM

  The John Rylands Library, German MS 1, Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit
  
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  Description:
  Forma Speculi Trinitae - Christ crucified, dressed in black with wings; above his crown sits a three-headed bird, in each hand is a crown on which sits a bird, at each foot are the head and shoulders of a man.

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Searcher > 30-07-2022, 01:28 PM

  (30-07-2022, 12:59 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The John Rylands Library, German MS 1, Buch der heiligen Dreifaltigkeit
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Description:
  Forma Speculi Trinitae - Christ crucified, dressed in black with wings; above his crown sits a three-headed bird, in each hand is a crown on which sits a bird, at each foot are the head and shoulders of a man.

  The description is obviously not full. 
  Do you ask where the Trinity? Yes, there is no obvious signs of it, unfortunately.

• RE: [split] Roots and Eagle heraldry

  Aga Tentakulus > 30-07-2022, 02:29 PM

     
  
  If you continue reading the text on the next page, the crowns stand for ........
  
  Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon.
  
  Whereas the double one stands for the sun and God.
  That is how I understood it.
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