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a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
- a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
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a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
geoffreycaveney > 04-05-2021, 08:31 PM
In a simple online search I came across a Latin illuminated manuscript on parchment, identified as from Bordeaux c. 1375-1400. At that time Bordeaux was presumably the center of English-ruled Aquitaine (actually more commonly known then as "Guyenne", in fact more commonly known thus from the 13th century until the French Revolution as I understand it). I believe that Old Occitan (Middle Occitan?) would have been the most common spoken vernacular language of this city and region at the time.
I have attached files showing several pages from this manuscript. The English title of the manuscript is "Mass Lectionary with Readings from the Epistles (Epistolarium)". For those who may be interested, the manuscript is apparently available for sale You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for $55,000.
The description of the manuscript on this webpage states the following: "The attractive Gothic script – each majuscule embellished and filled with pale yellow – pen initials of great refinement and delicacy, and relatively early velvet binding, all point to a commission of some importance."
My question is the following: For those who are knowledgeable about these matters, how do the shapes, ducts, aspects, etc., of the letterforms of this script compare with other English, French, Occitan, other French regional, German, Gothic, other Central European, and other Continental European cursive scripts of this time period?
Geoffrey -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
davidjackson > 04-05-2021, 09:05 PM
It's a fairly standard style of blackscript. I couldn't tell you which style, but it's very legible. I don't see anything that at once leaps out at me about the style of handwriting. -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
geoffreycaveney > 04-05-2021, 09:20 PM
(04-05-2021, 09:05 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's a fairly standard style of blackscript. I couldn't tell you which style, but it's very legible. I don't see anything that at once leaps out at me about the style of handwriting.
Thanks David. I guess the $55,000 question is, is there anything about the Voynich MS script handwriting that is incompatible with the handwriting of the scribe who produced this MS? I figure there must be, in all likelihood, but I'd like to know what it is, and what to look for to make such determinations.
And yes, I fully agree and I can see it's very legible. What a beautiful manuscript!
Geoffrey -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
-JKP- > 04-05-2021, 10:31 PM
Incompatible? Well, it's a common style of script used all over Europe in the 14th century. But it's moderately different from the 116v text (although in the same general Gothic family) and more different from the main text (which is invented and thus is not so easily categorized).
The main differences between your manuscript and the VMS are... it's a standard alphabet and we can read it, it's a wider quill so the thick-and-thin strokes are more pronounced, it's more professional (a good scribe), the pre-drawn baselines are carefully followed (the script is even), the letter spacing is tighter and more connected (there are serifs), there are frequent embellished letters used as section markers, and there are common and easily-recognized abbreviations and ligatures.
I could list quite a few more, but those are the main ones.
There are script styles much more similar than this to the VMS notes on 116v and more similar to the VMS main text (which is a different style from the 116v text). I have an enormous database of VMS-related script samples I have been collecting for more than a decade. I also have samples of scripts that are in the same family as the alphabet running down the righthand column on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
I also have a sample of numerals that almost matches the quire numbers and a couple that almost match the folio numbers. It took me years to find them.
I learned calligraphy when I was 11. I had a brilliant elementary school teacher who was a good calligrapher who taught us. I was interested enough that I learned a number of old-style alphabets and continued practicing. By the time I was 17, I was doing professional-level calligraphy. I have several lifelong interests that drew me to the VMS. I'm interested in plants, calligraphy, art & illustration, languages, and puzzles, so it's a good fit with my interests. To me the VMS is like catnip. -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
geoffreycaveney > 04-05-2021, 11:18 PM
Thank you JKP. I knew I could count on you for an accurate analysis of a late medieval Latin manuscript.
Let me get to the point: Let's say a lofty aristocrat (say, someone deluded into believing in the late 1390s that he may have eventually succeeded Richard II as heir to the throne of England [and France?!]) were later appointed Lieutenant of the Duchy of Aquitaine on behalf of the [actual, not imagined] king of England--who actually succeeded Richard II--in the first decade of the 15th century. In a couple of years, if he were trained by scribes who may have written, or known those who had the capability to have written, the beautiful MS that is the subject of this thread, could he have possibly been the primary author and designer of the script of the Voynich MS?
Asking for a friend...
Geoffrey -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
-JKP- > 04-05-2021, 11:40 PM
I have been gathering evidence that the VMS creator[s] have some formal training. I can see that they have (although not quite professional level) but finding evidence to prove it is a whole other issue.
It is my guess that the illustrator is fairly young (not a child, but not middle-aged or older). I am not 100% certain but I'm leaning in that direction... maybe late teens?
We don't know if the scribe and the illustrator are the same person. We also don't know if the "cipher" designer and the scribes are the same person/people (I believe there are at least two scribes and possibly three, and LFD has potentially identified more than that).
If I had to wager (I prefer not to wager but if I had to), I would guess that the "cipher" designer is probably one of the scribes (maybe scribe 1?). I'm not prepared to wager whether the illustrator is also a scribe. I really don't know and there aren't many clues as to whether this is so. There's a certain integration that suggests the illustrator MIGHT be one of the scribes but I am hesitant to suggest it. -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
geoffreycaveney > 05-05-2021, 12:24 AM
(04-05-2021, 11:40 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have been gathering evidence that the VMS creator[s] have some formal training. I can see that they have (although not quite professional level) but finding evidence to prove it is a whole other issue.
It is my guess that the illustrator is fairly young (not a child, but not middle-aged or older). I am not 100% certain but I'm leaning in that direction... maybe late teens?
We don't know if the scribe and the illustrator are the same person. We also don't know if the "cipher" designer and the scribes are the same person/people (I believe there are at least two scribes and possibly three, and LFD has potentially identified more than that).
If I had to wager (I prefer not to wager but if I had to), I would guess that the "cipher" designer is probably one of the scribes (maybe scribe 1?). I'm not prepared to wager whether the illustrator is also a scribe. I really don't know and there aren't many clues as to whether this is so. There's a certain integration that suggests the illustrator MIGHT be one of the scribes but I am hesitant to suggest it.
OK, I will just put this out there since I have literally nothing to lose...
My theory/hypothesis is that the cipher designer and Hand 1 is Edward, 2nd Duke of York (1373-1415), also Lieutenant of the Duchy of Aquitaine (in Bordeaux?) from July 1401 to May 1403. I further hypothesise that Hand 2, and a principal illustrator of the MS, is Constance of York, Edward's younger sister (1375-1416), and thus age 29-31 at the time of my proposed date of the initial composition of the VMS (1404-1406, when Glyndwr of Wales was still powerful enough to have been an inspiration for the illustration on folio page f73r ).
Geoffrey -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
-JKP- > 05-05-2021, 12:49 AM
I wouldn't argue against any of those possibilities.
Sometimes people post things that just don't feel right with what we know about the VMS. Other times, the feeling is, "Well, maybe, I wouldn't discount the possibility." -
RE: a Bordeaux MS c. 1375-1400
davidjackson > 05-05-2021, 09:31 PM
There is, as always, a substantial difference between a classically trained scribe and somebody who was educated to a high standard.
The VM is a product of the latter.
The images above, a product of the former.