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folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
- folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
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RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
ReneZ > 24-04-2020, 06:37 AM
(23-04-2020, 07:53 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Obviously the scribe started the next paragraph, then after a couple of words realised he had forgotten to finish the above paragraph!!! So he had to squeeze it in.
This is possible, but there are many end-of-paragraph lines that are shorter, and they are usually left-justified, but in some cases right-justified or centred, also when there is no following paragraph, or when the following paragraph starts much below.
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The mess found on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is more difficult to explain...
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RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
-JKP- > 24-04-2020, 05:06 PM
(24-04-2020, 06:37 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(23-04-2020, 07:53 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Obviously the scribe started the next paragraph, then after a couple of words realised he had forgotten to finish the above paragraph!!! So he had to squeeze it in.
...
The mess found on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is more difficult to explain...
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Yes, good example!
Not only are the Par. 3 dangling lines strange because it's hard to tell what belongs to what, but this paragraph doesn't even look like it was finished.
And... the fifth paragraph has an unconventional start, plus there's a whole bunch of stuff going on in the right-hand third of the folio that usually shows up on the left-hand side.
We could probably devote a whole thread just to this folio. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
RenegadeHealer > 25-04-2020, 01:22 AM
(24-04-2020, 05:06 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(24-04-2020, 06:37 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The mess found on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is more difficult to explain...
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Yes, good example!
Not only are the Par. 3 dangling lines strange because it's hard to tell what belongs to what, but this paragraph doesn't even look like it was finished.
And... the fifth paragraph has an unconventional start, plus there's a whole bunch of stuff going on in the right-hand third of the folio that usually shows up on the left-hand side.
We could probably devote a whole thread just to this folio.
I can definitely picture one scribe just quitting in disgust after writing the [ot] at what became the end of paragraph 3, and another scribe (a different one of Lisa Fagin Davis' five hands) having to pick up the project, and deciding to just start a new paragraph. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
ReneZ > 25-04-2020, 06:13 AM
I have seen all of the following in the MS:
- a suspiciously straight left margin, as if the first characters were written on the page before everything else.
- several consecutive lines where there is a vertical jump in the baseline of the writing after 2 or 3 words, as if these 2-3 words were written first and the rest later
- cases where it seems as if line N was written after line N+1
For the first case, one can also see unusual gaps after the first character (unusually wide or narrow)
For the last case there are different ways in which this appears. Sometimes line N+1 is rather strange and line N follows the contour of the tops of the characters of the following lines. In a few cases the loop of a p or f actually intrudes in the line above, and this line above has a wider gap and/or a change in the writing baseline.
This could be the result of the lines not being written completely, but filled in in a section iteration.
I will post some examples, because without them all of this may not be so clear. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
ReneZ > 25-04-2020, 06:52 AM
In my transliteration I have three annotations related to gallows intruding in the line above. There may be more of course. They are here:
f78v, sixth line of the second paragraph: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
f95v2 line 4: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the Beinecke scan is better here)
f95v1, paragraph 2 line 2: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There is another marginal case in the middle of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where 'something happened': You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
ReneZ > 25-04-2020, 07:01 AM
f95v1 as mentioned in the previous post has another interesting thing, namely the text surrounding the right-hand group of buds:
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This looks very much like arbitrary filler text, as if the words were taken from a table of words or numbers. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
Common_Man > 25-04-2020, 09:30 PM
The more I look at it, I feel like supporting the Timm & Schinner theory.. It clearly looks like the scribe wrote it keeping in mind a few permutation combinations with a few glyph groups.. Even though not autocopying, looks like the scribe had nothing original to convey. Is the text a filler as a whole? With some internal structure/a set of rules governing how its generated
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RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
-JKP- > 25-04-2020, 09:41 PM
My personal opinion (based on studying it) is that there may be a set of rules governing it, but there are a few places where it is extremely difficult to discern why a particular character was inserted in a particular place. I've wrestled with this for years.
Is it mostly rule-based with some room for exceptions? Or is it mostly rule-based with exceptions that encode meaning? If so, the proportion of meaningful text is small.
But, being rule-based doesn't necessarily mean it is meaningless. Numbers are rule-based, as one example. -
RE: folio 85r - full text (no illustrations)
Anton > 02-05-2020, 10:33 PM
(25-04-2020, 06:52 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In my transliteration I have three annotations related to gallows intruding in the line above. There may be more of course. They are here:
f78v, sixth line of the second paragraph: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
f95v2 line 4: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (the Beinecke scan is better here)
f95v1, paragraph 2 line 2: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
There is another marginal case in the middle of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. where 'something happened': You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I think the "intruding gallows" deserve close inspection. What this phenomenon would probably mean is that the line above the intruding gallows was written after the line containing the intruding gallows. So when the scribe was putting down the top line, he had to "wrap" the gallows loops with vords of that line.
Note that in all three examples provided by Rene the intruding gallows' line number in the paragraph is an odd number.
If you write odd lines first, and even lines in the second pass, then gallows in the even lines will never intrude.
This deserves further observation. In particular, whether, in the folios with high text density, gallows in odd lines are systematically taller than those in even lines.