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No text, but a visual code

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• No text, but a visual code

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  -JKP- > 24-05-2020, 11:08 AM

  A number of people have looked at the VMS glyphs as being shape-based (including me).
  
  Brian Cham is one of the people who has written up some ideas about the round and straight elements in the glylphs and I am told there were others before him.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 24-05-2020, 01:15 PM

  I know that people like you, Brian Cham or David Jackson have looked at VM glyphs as being shape-based. But it is necessary to go one step further. The glyphs make sense on their own, they have their own semantics. In a word, they are symbols with a real referent.
     People not only have the language to communicate, we also have the eyes. Everyone understands what a road sign means without talking.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 26-05-2020, 02:51 PM

  Look at this page of this arabic manuscript
  
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  At the top there is an cartouche with large letters written in arabic alphabet and next to the demons there are talismanic symbols. Among these symbols with perhaps astrological meaning are the gallows Eva-t and Eva-k.
  
  It is the first time that I see the gallows in a manuscript. The codex is contemporary to the VM

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  DONJCH > 26-05-2020, 03:34 PM

  Many interesting things here. A page with other familiar hieroglyphs. Paired zodiac signs. Novel text layouts, left right and center justified. Text forming a map? Worth a closer look!

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  ReneZ > 26-05-2020, 03:45 PM

  A similar type of illustration with similar symbols has been shown many times in Voynich MS fora over the last years, but I have to say that this one looks a bit more interesting than the earlier one.
  
  I wonder if these are two different versions of the same book (Kitab al Bulhan). The name certainly rings a bell.
  
  If anyone remembers one of the places in this forum where the earlier illustration was shown, it would be possible to compare.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  -JKP- > 26-05-2020, 04:33 PM

  This manuscript has been linked numerous times.
  
  The script is a talismanic script. It is used for summoning or repelling demons (depending on who is using it and how it is being used). At one point (years ago), I learned most of the characters but I have since forgotten them.
  
  Notice how the drawing on the left is bowl-shaped. I didn't know what this signified the first time I saw it, but then I realized it was probably a reference to talismanic bowls. They are quite interesting, with talismanic (demon-repelling scripts) written around in a circle in their interiors and sometimes also exteriors.
  
  Here is an example:
  
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  This is Mandaic script, not the same script as the Bodleian manuscript, but it's the same idea and the two scripts were used in similar ways.
  
  
  The loops and lines are typical of talismanic scripts and were also used for angel names and constellation diagrams in Hebrew and western manuscripts.
  
  
  Any script that is based around lines and small loops has a high probability of having a glyph or two in common with the VMS, in this case EVA-k and EVA-t. However, EVA-k and t can also be found in Latin and Greek scripts, so it's difficult to determine the exact origin of the idea in the Voynich script. Overall, however, the talismanic script is not very similar to Voynichese.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 26-05-2020, 07:24 PM

  René, there are two Turkish copies of this codex, Kitab al-Bulhan, from the late sixteenth century. These manuscripts are in the Pierpont Morgan Library, New York and the Bibliotèque Nationale, Paris, and bear a title that can be translated as ‘The Ascension of Propitious Stars and the Sources of Sovereignty. They provide the models for a proper reconstruction of the original Kitab al-Bulhan.
  
  JKP, I think you contradict yourself. You said that only a few of the glyphs are unknown, one of them Eva-t. And now you say that Eva-t can also be found in Latin and Greek scripts.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  -JKP- > 27-05-2020, 05:12 AM

  (26-05-2020, 07:24 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  ...
  
  JKP, I think you contradict yourself. You said that only a few of the glyphs are unknown, one of them Eva-t. And now you say that Eva-t can also be found in Latin and Greek scripts.
  

  
  
  Yes, EVA-t can be found in Greek and Latin texts, but it is rare. That's why I prefer to not include it most of the time I talk about the glyphs. It does exist. Benched glyphs also exist in Latin texts, but they are rare. They are more common in Greek texts. So I set them aside when I am talking about Latin texts because they were not common.
  
  It's not a contradiction. It's that I try to stay away from generalizations about the more rare glyphs. The fact that they are uncommon means I prefer to keep thinking about other possible origins.
  
  I looked quite thoroughly into the talismanic alphabets, enough that I learned what the letters were and could read a little bit of it. But I did not see any overall similarity to talismanic characters, only a couple of similarities that might be coincidental.
  
  These talismanic characters can sometimes be found in Latin translations of Semitic texts (mostly Hebrew). The Kabbalistic line-loop characters are related to the ancient talismanic characters (perhaps derived from them, but I'm not sure). So even these are in Latin texts, but they are not of Latin origin.
  
  
  .
  Only a few of the VMS glyphs are unknown, the benched ascenders in particular, but I have made it clear that the CONCEPT of benching existed in Greek scribal conventions. In fact, it was very common in Greek. It's the specific combination that is uncommon. The VMS shapes almost all exist in Latin. The concept of the gallows chars exists in Greek. There are a couple of rare characters in the VMS, they are hardly used at all, that can be found in Coptic Greek, Old Russian, and sometimes in astronomical texts. This rare shape is found in several languages, just as the letters "a" and "o" are found in several languages.
  
  
  I don't know why there is so much resistance to accepting that most of the VMS shapes are consistent with Latin shapes. They are. It's not opinion, it's fact.
  
  These glyphs are all common in Latin: a u o e r s k b n c ch sh g m h l d y ' ↄ q  and maybe i (except it doesn't usually lean like that). x is found in Coptic manuscripts and Latin and Greek astronomical texts. 
  
  That covers the majority of the VMS glyphs.
  
  Greek concepts might explain the rest of the gallows chars. I'm not absolutely sure the benched gallows are based on Greek, but benching and superposition are common in Greek, especially with shapes like the ones in the VMS, so it's the best explanation I have so far. I'll keep looking for others, I always do, but I've spent years looking at alphabets and I haven't seen anything that comes closer yet.
  
  Yes, there are a couple of shapes in talismanic alphabets that are similar to EVA-t and EVA-k, the lines and small loops are part of how they are constructed. I have long since acknowledged these, and they were known in the west through translations of Kabbalistic texts, but the talismanic alphabet overall, does not resemble Voynichese.
  
  
  There are 21 VMS glyphs that are commonly found in Latin texts and a couple that exist but are less common. That looks like a majority to me. Does it mean it's Latin? No, of course not. Shape-origin and meaning are separate issues.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 27-05-2020, 09:07 AM

  That most of the VM shapes are consistent with Latin shapes it's not a fact at all, it's just your opinion. The VM script is based around lines and small loops and it's easy to be confused with the letters of any alphabet. The similarity is coincidental.
  
    If I accepted that opinion, I would have to believe that 17th century learned men knew less Latin and scribal conventions that 21st century learned men. I resist to believe it. Dozens of wise men from the Prague court must have seen a manuscript in which the emperor Rudolf was so interested. And they did not leave any testimony that they had seen anything related to Latin, quite the contrary.
  
  Giving your opinion as a fact is simply giving up thinking about other possibilities and has led to failure after failure in the effort to decode the VM
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
    

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Koen G > 27-05-2020, 09:21 AM

  This is something that I also find fascinating, though I don't know which conclusions to draw from it. Why did Baresch speak about hieroglyphs, when precisely the shapes should have been mostly familiar?
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