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• No text, but a visual code

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 06-06-2024, 08:02 AM

  Hermes, that the zodiacal symbols represented on a buffalo in a Paleolithic cave has all the appearance of pseudoscience. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.
   
  These symbols do not appear until the 15th century and are an ideogram of the drawings of the zodiacal signs.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  HermesRevived > 06-06-2024, 11:28 AM

  (06-06-2024, 08:02 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hermes, that the zodiacal symbols represented on a buffalo in a Paleolithic cave has all the appearance of pseudoscience. I wouldn't pay much attention to it.
   
  These symbols do not appear until the 15th century and are an ideogram of the drawings of the zodiacal signs.

  
  You've opened an interesting matter though Antonio. My proposal is that the 'language' is some form of astrological notation, specifically Ptolemaic. But the glyph set in the Voynich bears no resemblance - not a glyph - to what became the standard astrological notation post printing press. As we've noted, the planets are just not there, and the symbols for the zodiac signs haven't arrived yet. But there's none of the symbols for, say, trines and squares and other astrological aspects - none of that. The Voynich is prior to or at least outside of the development of those symbols. There is a different design. 
  
  If the Voynich author wanted to indicate a zodiac sign in the text, how was this accomplished? It does not seem to be the case that a Voynich word - say [qokaiin] - means "Gemini" or anything that straightforward. And there are no zodiac symbols. So how would it be done? Surely the text in the Star Catalogue makes reference to the zodiac signs? And presumably the text on the botanical pages too. And you map the fixed stars by zodiacal positions. So how, in Voynichese, does one say "10˚ Capricorn"? How does one indicate "Capricorn"?

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 07-06-2024, 08:06 AM

  One way to identify the zodiac signs before the invention of their symbols was through numbers. I have seen it this way in medieval astronomical tables where they are identified from 1 to 12 starting with Aries.
  
  Another way, which I believe is relevant for Voynich, is through the number of hours of light per day. This is quite common in contemporary VM Volvelles. Let's look at this diagram from Nicholas of Lynn:
  
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  Although it is easy to get lost among so many numbers, we can clearly see two crosses to mark the solstices and next to them the numbers 8 and four in their ancient form. As the sphere is divided into quadrants, in summer the two quadrants of the day add up to 16 hours of light and the two quadrants of the night add up to 8 hours. These figures correspond to the latitude of the place where the Volvelle was made.
  
  On the summer solstice we see the numbers 8 and old four on Gemini and Cancer and on the winter solstice the same numbers on Sagittarius and Capricorn. I believe that the glyphs that we see in the VM script, the one that has the shape of 8 and the one that has the shape of an old four, are exactly those numbers and represent the solstices or positions close to them.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  HermesRevived > 07-06-2024, 11:07 AM

  (07-06-2024, 08:06 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.One way to identify the zodiac signs before the invention of their symbols was through numbers. I have seen it this way in medieval astronomical tables where they are identified from 1 to 12 starting with Aries.
  
  Another way, which I believe is relevant for Voynich, is through the number of hours of light per day. This is quite common in contemporary VM Volvelles. Let's look at this diagram from Nicholas of Lynn:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  Although it is easy to get lost among so many numbers, we can clearly see two crosses to mark the solstices and next to them the numbers 8 and four in their ancient form. As the sphere is divided into quadrants, in summer the two quadrants of the day add up to 16 hours of light and the two quadrants of the night add up to 8 hours. These figures correspond to the latitude of the place where the Volvelle was made.
  
  On the summer solstice we see the numbers 8 and old four on Gemini and Cancer and on the winter solstice the same numbers on Sagittarius and Capricorn. I believe that the glyphs that we see in the VM script, the one that has the shape of 8 and the one that has the shape of an old four, are exactly those numbers and represent the solstices or positions close to them.

  
  That's excellent Antonio. Many thanks. That is a very useful answer to my question. 
  
  It's remarkable, isn't it, that there has been almost no attempt to consider the Voynich text as an astrological notation? In attempting to work out the values of the glyphs, and the formulae, I can find almost nothing helpful from previous studies. It's all linguistic theories, or cryptology, or hoax theories. So we will just have to work it out ourselves. (I fear, though, that it requires a very good grasp of Ptolemaic astrology - better than mine.) I am confident, though, that it can be done and that your ideas regarding the specifics of the notation are on the right path.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 08-06-2024, 05:45 PM

  We are approaching the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. We all know, because it is a widely spread tradition, that the solstice is related to the magic of plants. From experience the ancients knew that light enhanced the properties of plants. Now we know that some but all plants need light for photosynthesis.
  
  For me it is highly probable that, in a codex like the Voynich, half herbal, half cosmological, the summer solstice is present.I believe that the most repeated string of glyphs [daiin] is the position of a star on the day of the summer solstice. I don't like to put letters but I have put them on this occasion for better understanding.
  
  In reality, the string is the number 8 followed by a small circle attached to an inclined line and two more inclined lines, the last one with a closing ornament. As I said in a previous post, the number 8, which is the number of hours of light in each of the two quadrants of the day, from when the sun rises until it sets, is equivalent to the zodiac signs of Gemini and Cancer. The inclined lines are those that exactly place the star in the first degree of Cancer, the solstice.
  
  In fact, there is that same string of glyphs without the number 8, which means that it is a position on the sphere that corresponds to other zodiac signs. Just as the same string of glyphs exists without any inclined line, which would mean, as I see it, that the star is close to the solstice, but in another position.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  HermesRevived > 09-06-2024, 09:57 AM

  (08-06-2024, 05:45 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We are approaching the summer solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. We all know, because it is a widely spread tradition, that the solstice is related to the magic of plants. From experience the ancients knew that light enhanced the properties of plants. Now we know that some but all plants need light for photosynthesis.
  
  For me it is highly probable that, in a codex like the Voynich, half herbal, half cosmological, the summer solstice is present.I believe that the most repeated string of glyphs [daiin] is the position of a star on the day of the summer solstice. I don't like to put letters but I have put them on this occasion for better understanding.
  
  In reality, the string is the number 8 followed by a small circle attached to an inclined line and two more inclined lines, the last one with a closing ornament. As I said in a previous post, the number 8, which is the number of hours of light in each of the two quadrants of the day, from when the sun rises until it sets, is equivalent to the zodiac signs of Gemini and Cancer. The inclined lines are those that exactly place the star in the first degree of Cancer, the solstice.
  
  In fact, there is that same string of glyphs without the number 8, which means that it is a position on the sphere that corresponds to other zodiac signs. Just as the same string of glyphs exists without any inclined line, which would mean, as I see it, that the star is close to the solstice, but in another position.

  
  I see how that works Antonio, and I think it gives a very cogent account of it. My account of [daiin] is very similar, but the 'word' is an astrological formula. It is the numerical sequence: 8 - 4 - 2 - 1. That is: D = 8, A = 4, II = 2, N = 1. This is the division of the ecliptic by 8, marking the points between the solstices and equinoxes, the so-called half-quarter days. 
  
  There is a tension throughout the Voynich astrology between the eightfold and twelvefold divisions of the ecliptic. By my account, [daiin] is about the eightfold system of divisions. The glyphs themselves add to 15. 8 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 15 - the midpoint of the zodiacal signs. But it also provides other formulae because [iin] is a sub-set and equals 3. Thus [aiin] = 7.
  
  I agree that the plume or flourish on the [n] glyph is an ornament marking a specific degree. We agree [daiin] pinpoints a specific degree. I disagree it is specific to the summer solstice, although I agree the summer solstice (and spring equinox) is more fully represented in the text than the other quarters. 
  
  By my account, the four gallows represent the quarter points. [k] = summer solstice, [t] = winter solstice, [p] = spring equinox and [f] autumn equinox. The proportion of these glyphs in the text makes some sense as seasonal markers with [k] (summer) the most frequent. 
  
  Please explain more of how you think the notation operates. My system (such as it is) is not based on measures of daylight. Your account is probably more coherent than mine and I need to consider the numbers as durations and not just as divisions. Thanks.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  HermesRevived > 09-06-2024, 09:32 PM

  I think your method is correct Antonio, and puts us in a position to work out ("solve") the text. We can proceed on the (well-founded) assumption that the Voynich 'language' is a development from the systems of astrological notation in use prior to the arrival of the standard zodiac symbols and the now familiar system of notation (which, as you say, prevailed after the printing press.) We can study examples of that old system of notation - where zodiacal divisions are marked by day-length - and extrapolate to Voynichese. The numerical glyphs in the Voynich glyph-set (like EVA [d]) are the place to start. 
  
  The gallows glyphs are an innovation, though. In the Ashmole example you posted, the solstice is marked by the (+) cross. I propose that in the Voynich system, the author has developed a set of four glyphs to stand in these places. And the four benched gallows mark the half-quarter (or kerubic) days. It is a straightforward development from earlier notation, but an innovation. I suspect the Voynich system is built around that innovation. The chain of causation then is something like: 
  
  *The author begins with existing systems of astrological notation.
  *In those systems the solstices and quarters are marked (usually, and crudely) by crosses (or similar)
  *The author starts by refining this and devises a system of consistent symbols to mark the four quarters (and half-quarters) of the year.

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  HermesRevived > 09-06-2024, 09:53 PM

  Perhaps you have insights into this problem, Antonio? What marks "scale" in the notation? A glyph might mark the summer solstice, say, (0˚ Cancer) but at the same time what is the summer solstice on the scale of the Year is NOON at the scale of the Day. 
  
  The Voynich notation is of such complexity it must reference several scales, or orders, including times of day. How is this marked in the notation? 
  
  Most likely, this is what is happening when EVA [ch] is capped and becomes EVA [sh]. One might refer to the solstice but the other refers to noon (the solstice of the day). It is not enough that the text identifies a particular degree (star) of the zodiac - there is the matter of when the star rises (culminates and sets). 
  
  It is an inherent problem in this type of stellar astrology. There are 360 fixed stars ascribed to the degrees of the ecliptic, by projection. Very few of them are actually on or even near the ecliptic. Consequently, the actual star will rise at a different time to the degree of the ecliptic to which it is ascribed. Thus you need "Handy Tables" to make the adjustment - which is different for different latitudes. 
  
  The Voynich notation must be able to locate not only degrees of the ecliptic but also the rising times of stars and the difference between them (at a certain latitude). 
  
  Any ideas on how the text marks times of the day rather than times of the year?

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 10-06-2024, 05:17 PM

  Hermes, I believe that a key piece to understand the VM script as an astronomical-astrological notation system is the so-called clock on the Rosettes page. 
  
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  It is actually a Volvelle with the sun and moon in the trine aspect, one of the main aspects in astrology. We see the sun and we see the moon twice because it is represented at 125º from the sun in each of the hemispheres of the sphere. 
  
  But something very important are all those small lines circumscribed on the sphere. Each of the lines is worth 15º, which is a kardaga, a concept widely used in medieval astronomy. And 15º is equal to one hour. Therefore we see that there are 24 lines that represent 24 hours of the day. And 15º x 24 equals 360º of the sphere.
  
  The lines are grouped three by three in the places on the sphere where the most important astrological aspects are formed: the sextile, the square, the trine and the opposition. 
  
  I believe that those small lines (one, two or all three) are the ones we see in the script combined with the other glyphs

• RE: No text, but a visual code

  Antonio García Jiménez > 23-06-2024, 05:38 PM

  There are hardly any things that the members of this forum agree on. Where I think there may be some unanimity is in the design of the script glyphs. There is no doubt that the author or authors have chosen the glyphs intentionally. Many of them show a strong polarity. There are two gallows with one leg and there are two gallows with two legs. And likewise there are two gallows with a loop and two others without it. The same can be said for benched gallows. There is also a bench with a sign on top and another without it.
  
  Polarity is also manifested in the glyphs that are repeated up to three times: [c][cc] [ccc] and [\][\\][\\\]. Both sequences are incompatible and there are glyphs that show a preference for one or the other. This strong polarity is such an intrinsic feature of the script that it is lost when converting glyphs to letters of the alphabet. What is lost is the intention of the design.
  
  For me, since the codex has such extensive cosmological content, that polarity is the partition of the sphere of the cosmos into two halves.
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