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Morten St George Theory
- Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 09:28 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:13 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten YOUR EXAMPLE does not look like the VMS hat. Look at the enlargement. It's not a beret. The VMS hat is a poofy beret.
Your example MIGHT be the same idea as the statue of Uta von Ballenstedt in Naumburg Cathedral. You can't say a cap with a chinstrap and a ring of metal around the perimeter is the same as the VMS hat.
I'm not even convinced it has a little tab in the center. I think that might be an illusion. It might be the edge of the faces of the two boys in the background and is not necessarily part of the hat.
Whatever it is, JP, the 13th century Spanish hat provides a better match for the VMS hat (there are more examples of this type of hat in the VMS) than anything you have so far shown us for the 15th century.
It looks like the bulge in the middle of the hat might be the sign of a master instructor or something like that. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:42 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:28 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 09:13 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten YOUR EXAMPLE does not look like the VMS hat. Look at the enlargement. It's not a beret. The VMS hat is a poofy beret.
Your example MIGHT be the same idea as the statue of Uta von Ballenstedt in Naumburg Cathedral. You can't say a cap with a chinstrap and a ring of metal around the perimeter is the same as the VMS hat.
I'm not even convinced it has a little tab in the center. I think that might be an illusion. It might be the edge of the faces of the two boys in the background and is not necessarily part of the hat.
Whatever it is, JP, the 13th century Spanish hat provides a better match for the VMS hat (there are more examples of this type of hat in the VMS) than anything you have so far shown us for the 15th century.
It looks like the bulge in the middle of the hat might be the sign of a master instructor or something like that.
Morten it's a CROWN. There's no BULGE. There's no fabric. It's a typical crown with a fleur-de-lis embellishment so common on crowns.
It does not look like the VMS beret in any way and it's MADE OF METAL, not cloth It's a small simplified drawing of the kind of crown on the right, the kind with a fleur-de-lis sticking up higher than the other parts:
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 09:44 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:20 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, what are you talking about? Where is there a hat with a little circle on top?
I think I found the expression "a little circle on top" on your blog where you describe the VMS hats that have a little circle on top. Please point me to non-VMS depictions of hats with a little circle on top. Thanks. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 09:54 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:42 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[Morten it's a CROWN. There's no BULGE. There's no fabric. It's a typical crown with a fleur-de-lis embellishment so common on crowns.
It does not look like the VMS beret in any way and it's MADE OF METAL, not cloth It's a small simplified drawing of the kind of crown on the right, the kind with a fleur-de-lis sticking up higher than the other parts:
OK. I imagine a king can provide instruction if he so wishes. But you still need to find a "VMS beret" elsewhere. There are several of them in the VMS and I think it remains our best chance to identify the VMS authors. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:55 AM
Which blog? I don't remember describing any hats with the words "a little circle on top". -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:59 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:54 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK. I imagine a king can provide instruction if he so wishes. But you still need to find a "VMS beret" elsewhere. There are several of them in the VMS and I think it remains our best chance to identify the VMS authors.
Berets are mostly found in France in the medieval period (there are a few in Germany and Switzerland, as well, but not as many). I don't have time to upload the examples, but here is one I was able to grab quickly, from the Tübingen Hausbuch (which is German). It's not quite as poofy as some of them:
It could probably also be argued that the VMS hat is an oversimplified turban style (wrapped fabric), but it's drawn more like a beret than like a turban, so it's hard to know for sure.
Here's what I mean by turban-style. If this were a greatly simplified drawing (so the wrappings in the fabric aren't included) and the bump in the middle were raised, it might look a bit like a poofy beret:
I'm leaning toward the VMS hat being a beret. The only reason I'm considering the turban is because the beret shape is poofier than most. But... the sock hat (worn by Sagittarius) has an especially long tail, so maybe it's not out of character for the beret to have an especially poofy brim. Extra fabric was often a display of wealth in the Middle Ages. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 27-02-2019, 10:25 AM
In my opinion it is not very clear which hat type is meant in the VM by the "little circle on top" type. You can link it to types anywhere, any place, as JKP started demonstrating. That's why I focused on the larger images in the roundel centres which contain more unambiguous fashion statements. And those scream early 15th century European elite. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 27-02-2019, 01:35 PM
(27-02-2019, 09:07 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 08:00 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The hats post more relevant to provenance is this one:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Koen G, Neither you nor JP provide a 15th-century example of a hat with "a little circle on top", but I provide one from 13th century Spain.
Morten, after looking at the original i have to say that the part you presented as the circle on top, while it did look that way somewhat, is actually the forehead of the fourth person behind him.
I think the one in the vms is also not a circle on top, but just the portion you can see of the poofy type, like on the archer.
Oh...i guess i should have caught up, you were talking about the crown? I discounted that right away and thought you were talking about the the other one. In any case there is no comparable headwear in your example. Nor does any of the clothing match. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 27-02-2019, 01:41 PM
(27-02-2019, 01:35 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morton, after looking at the original i have to say that the part you presented as the circle on top, while it did look that way somewhat, is actually the forehead of the fourth person behind him.
Just when you think you've heard it all -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 27-02-2019, 01:50 PM
(27-02-2019, 01:41 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 01:35 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morton, after looking at the original i have to say that the part you presented as the circle on top, while it did look that way somewhat, is actually the forehead of the fourth person behind him.
Just when you think you've heard it all
But you see it, right?
Thanks to JKP for the enlargement