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Morten St George Theory
- Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 08:35 AM
(27-02-2019, 04:57 AM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You do not give enough information here to see the text you took the image from. Could you please give a link to the original?
Hi Linda. You can find more info on the following URL, one third of the page down on the right hand side:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 08:37 AM
Koen, I added your link, so the list is all in one place. Easier for the reader.
Not sure how I missed that link. I copied it but must have forgotten to paste it. Thanks. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 08:42 AM
(27-02-2019, 03:41 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This here is an image from the VMS alongside an image from one of the Toledo manuscripts:
![[Image: img-vms-spanish-clothing.jpg]](http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/img-vms-spanish-clothing.jpg)
Notice the double-lined necklines, long-sleeve shirts ending just before the wrist and, above all, flat top hats with a bulge in the middle. Off-hand, I'd say the VMS is depicting standard Spanish clothing of the 13th century, not the 15th century.
I'm not sure what you're trying to show, Morten. Long-sleeve shirts are common—they can be found anywhere. Long-sleeve shirts with sleeves that are WIDE AT THE ELBOW and NARROW AT THE WRIST are not common. Those are the ones you have to look for.
I don't see any similarity between the hats. You have a cloth beret on the left and a metal crown on the right.
I haven't found very many berets, and the poofy ones are even less common, but the ones I located (if I remember correctly) were from France, possibly southern France. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 08:45 AM
(27-02-2019, 06:10 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I spent more than 7 years collecting more than 500 complete zodiac series (each with 12 symbols) and wrote numerous blogs about the results. When the PATTERNS that are found in the VMS imagery are evaluated in combination with each other NONE of the combination searches pointed to Spain. Not a single one. I wish they had. I find Spanish culture and history interesting, but they didn't.
...
I tried hard, but was not able to find a single exemplar from Spain that might have inspired the combination of themes that were brought together in the VMS.
Unfortunately, the Toledo astrology books are not immediately available to me, but I do imagine that they would include zodiac depictions. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 08:53 AM
(27-02-2019, 06:21 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Many of the more scientifically oriented manuscripts of the Middle Ages don't have any references whatsoever to organized religion.
Were any of these more scientifically oriented manuscripts encrypted? The Papal Inquisition was created in the early 13th century with an objective of finding and burning books that they did not like. Could that be why the VMS employs encryption? -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:01 AM
Okay, now I get it. I had to download the document and zoom in to see the hat worn by the student on the right:
It's not really the same kind of hat as a poofy beret. It has a chinstrap and a second layer around the edge that flattens the outside the perimeter (it might be metal, but I'm not sure, there are some crowns that are designed like this, metal on the edge and a pushed-down fabric in the middle, crowns from Graz are sometimes designed like this, but without a chin strap). A beret poofs out on the sides and never has a chin strap (it's not really called a beret if it has a chinstrap).
Hmm, I'm still trying to figure out this headgear. It almost looks like a prince's crown worn over a night-cap.
I suspect it's a chinstrap crown on the boy's head. Here is a fancier one from Germany with a flat top and a chin strap:
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 09:07 AM
(27-02-2019, 08:00 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The hats post more relevant to provenance is this one:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Koen G, Neither you nor JP provide a 15th-century example of a hat with "a little circle on top", but I provide one from 13th century Spain. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:13 AM
Morten YOUR EXAMPLE does not look like the VMS hat. Look at the enlargement. It's not a beret. The VMS hat is a poofy beret.
Your example MIGHT be the same idea as the statue of Uta von Ballenstedt in Naumburg Cathedral. You can't say a cap with a chinstrap and a ring of metal around the perimeter is the same as the VMS hat.
I'm not even convinced it has a little tab in the center. I think that might be an illusion. It might be the edge of the faces of the two boys in the background and is not necessarily part of the hat. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 09:15 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:01 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, now I get it. I had to download the document and zoom in to see the hat worn by the student on the right:
It's not really the same kind of hat as a poofy beret. It has a chinstrap and a second layer around the edge that flattens the outside the perimeter (it might be metal, but I'm not sure, there are some crowns that are designed like this, metal on the edge and a pushed-down fabric in the middle, crowns from Graz are sometimes designed like this, but without a chin strap). A beret poofs out on the sides and never has a chin strap (it's not really called a beret if it has a chinstrap).
Hmm, I'm still trying to figure out this headgear. It almost looks like a prince's crown worn over a night-cap.
Great, but I think it might also be helpful or even more helpful to concentrate on the hat with a little circle on top. It might reflect some type of religious or academic status which could help us to identify the authors of the VMS. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 27-02-2019, 09:20 AM
(27-02-2019, 09:15 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 09:01 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Okay, now I get it. I had to download the document and zoom in to see the hat worn by the student on the right:
It's not really the same kind of hat as a poofy beret. It has a chinstrap and a second layer around the edge that flattens the outside the perimeter (it might be metal, but I'm not sure, there are some crowns that are designed like this, metal on the edge and a pushed-down fabric in the middle, crowns from Graz are sometimes designed like this, but without a chin strap). A beret poofs out on the sides and never has a chin strap (it's not really called a beret if it has a chinstrap).
Hmm, I'm still trying to figure out this headgear. It almost looks like a prince's crown worn over a night-cap.
Great, but I think it might also be helpful or even more helpful to concentrate on the hat with a little circle on top. It might reflect some type of religious or academic status which could help us to identify the authors of the VMS.
Morten, what are you talking about? Where is there a hat with a little circle on top? The noble person on the left (king??) is wearing a traditional metal crown with a fleur-de-lis shaped edge.
The student or prince on the right is wearing a less fancy chinstrap hat that might also be a crown. Behind him are four other boys with no hats, two of them with their faces partly obscured by his hat.