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Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 02:41 PM
(27-02-2019, 09:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Which blog? I don't remember describing any hats with the words "a little circle on top".
Sorry about that. I must have thought it was your blog because I recalled that you provided the link:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 03:25 PM
(27-02-2019, 01:35 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh...i guess i should have caught up, you were talking about the crown? I discounted that right away and thought you were talking about the the other one. In any case there is no comparable headwear in your example. Nor does any of the clothing match.
Thanks, Linda, for your contribution. Though Koen and JP have found some fashion links to the 15th century, this cannot overcome the primary evidence arguing against the redaction of the VMS in 15th century Europe, namely, the failure to find another instance of VMS script from that place and time.
Moreover, the general tone and style of the VMS has very little in common with other manuscripts of the 15th century. That is not just my opinion. For example, D'Imperio cites an expert on medieval manuscripts as saying "It is strange that the draftsman should have so completely escaped all medieval or Renaissance influence."
The medieval situation was further complicated by the Inquisition and their book-burning bonfires. Valuable sources of precedent material are no longer extant leading Koen and JP to faulty conclusions regarding dates of origin. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 27-02-2019, 03:31 PM
(27-02-2019, 01:50 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But you see it, right?
Yeah you're absolutely right.
Morten, the exact set of Voynichese glyphs is not found anywhere, so this cannot be used as an argument for or against any theory.
However, the positive evidence in favor of 15th century Europe (both in script and imagery) is overwhelming. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 03:32 PM
(27-02-2019, 09:59 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Berets are mostly found in France in the medieval period (there are a few in Germany and Switzerland, as well, but not as many). I don't have time to upload the examples ...
In actual fact, when you find the time, I would welcome sight of a French example from any 15th century manuscript. Thanks. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-02-2019, 03:56 PM
(27-02-2019, 03:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, the exact set of Voynichese glyphs is not found anywhere, so this cannot be used as an argument for or against any theory.
However, the positive evidence in favor of 15th century Europe (both in script and imagery) is overwhelming.
Do a search on Google Images for "15th century manuscripts". Honestly, does anything you see there resemble the VMS?
![[Image: img-vms-15th-century-manuscripts.jpg]](http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/img-vms-15th-century-manuscripts.jpg)
It's pretty obvious that 15th century European culture was unknown to the authors of the VMS. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 27-02-2019, 04:08 PM
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 27-02-2019, 04:25 PM
(27-02-2019, 03:25 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 01:35 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh...i guess i should have caught up, you were talking about the crown? I discounted that right away and thought you were talking about the the other one. In any case there is no comparable headwear in your example. Nor does any of the clothing match.
Thanks, Linda, for your contribution. Though Koen and JP have found some fashion links to the 15th century, this cannot overcome the primary evidence arguing against the redaction of the VMS in 15th century Europe, namely, the failure to find another instance of VMS script from that place and time.
Moreover, the general tone and style of the VMS has very little in common with other manuscripts of the 15th century. That is not just my opinion. For example, D'Imperio cites an expert on medieval manuscripts as saying "It is strange that the draftsman should have so completely escaped all medieval or Renaissance influence."
The medieval situation was further complicated by the Inquisition and their book-burning bonfires. Valuable sources of precedent material are no longer extant leading Koen and JP to faulty conclusions regarding dates of origin.
I agree that a lot has been lost, but i see enough evidence to support the carbon dating, especially Koen and JKP's clothing and zodiac comparisons.
Myself i think i see references from 1415 to 1419 in terms of historical geography.
I would also not expect most of 15th century art to be reflected since most of it is past the date we are talking about. I think it is talking about things that endure, rather than discussing trends of the day. I see it as a history of mankind in a way that tries to pull it all together, to negate the differences in culture from place to place. I think they knew about places more than faces, so to speak. That is why the nymphs are mainly unclothed, i think. However, some culture creeps in, and it helps give us clues.
I don't think many actual precedents are going to be found, but allusions or integrations do seem to be there. These will be from early 15th century and before. So if you see some 13th century references, this would not surprise me. But i think it is definitely referenced from the perspective of a person living in 1420 or after. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 27-02-2019, 04:29 PM
(27-02-2019, 03:56 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 03:31 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Morten, the exact set of Voynichese glyphs is not found anywhere, so this cannot be used as an argument for or against any theory.
However, the positive evidence in favor of 15th century Europe (both in script and imagery) is overwhelming.
Do a search on Google Images for "15th century manuscripts". Honestly, does anything you see there resemble the VMS?
It's pretty obvious that 15th century European culture was unknown to the authors of the VMS.
Actually some of those dresses seem similar to virgo and gemini at first glance -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Koen G > 27-02-2019, 04:49 PM
(27-02-2019, 04:25 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, some culture creeps in, and it helps give us clues.
This is a crucial part to understand. I am absolutely convinced that if you were to present Virgo, Gemini and Sagittarius to a curator with the relevant expertise, they would date it to 1400-1430, give or take a decade.
It's still possible to say the MS was made later. But this would already require two violations of Occam's razor. You'd have to add the condition that old vellum was used, and that old fashion was used, which happens to overlap with the period of the vellum in the first place. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Linda > 27-02-2019, 08:09 PM
(27-02-2019, 04:49 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(27-02-2019, 04:25 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.However, some culture creeps in, and it helps give us clues.
This is a crucial part to understand. I am absolutely convinced that if you were to present Virgo, Gemini and Sagittarius to a curator with the relevant expertise, they would date it to 1400-1430, give or take a decade.
It's still possible to say the MS was made later. But this would already require two violations of Occam's razor. You'd have to add the condition that old vellum was used, and that old fashion was used, which happens to overlap with the period of the vellum in the first place.
Koen, I accept your research on this completely, and agree with your conclusions. The fashion info you found means that even if Morten had found 200 year older fashion, that he would still have to explain that which you have found matching 15th century examples.
Morten, i apologize for misspelling your name earlier, i fixed my note but the mistake remains in quotes.
I am wondering why you insist the manuscript should be created in the 13th century, i thought you had said it would be a copy of an earlier writing. My take is that it is not a copy of anything in particular but does seem to reference other related texts, generally scientific ones though, herbals, maps, astronomy, that sort of thing, not like your 15th century example posting, which are more tradition based.