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• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 28-08-2019, 03:28 AM

  Some of the glyphs in the VMS are the same shapes as Indic-Arabic numerals. These shapes existed in the middle medieval period in compotus manuscripts, but were not generally popular until the 15th century when they basically obsoleted the Roman numerals. We call them Arabic numerals because they were brought to us from India by east-Arab traders (often via Africa through Spain to Italy).
  
  In the Middle Ages, scribal abbrevations (as in the implied vowel when a shape has a tail) were more similar between Latin and Indic scripts than they are now. In fact, in English colonial times in India, the administrators expressly complained about all the abbreviations and ligatures in Indic scripts and basically said get rid of them, teach the kids something simpler.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 29-08-2019, 03:12 AM

  (28-08-2019, 03:28 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In the Middle Ages, scribal abbrevations (as in the implied vowel when a shape has a tail) were more similar between Latin and Indic scripts than they are now. In fact, in English colonial times in India, the administrators expressly complained about all the abbreviations and ligatures in Indic scripts and basically said get rid of them, teach the kids something simpler.

  
  You remind me of something I read a while back: A woman from India claimed she can prove that the VMS came from India because she found a VMS plant in her backyard!
  
  Further support for India comes from a source that we should take a little more seriously:
  
  "There was also in both these writings, as well the Booke, as the Letter, wrought a great Miracle, Conforme to that of the Apostles, in the Originall Gift of Tongues. For there being at that time, in this Land, Hebrewes, Persians, and Indians, besides the Natiues, euery one redd vpon the Booke, and Letter, as if they had been written in his owne Language."
  
  I was wondering, with the word "Natiues" in there, do you think the author could be referring to American Indians rather than the Indians of India? The reason I ask is because there appears to be not a single prophecy that concerns India but several of them concern the American Indians. Moreover, elsewhere, our source directly refers to the American Indians:
  
  "As well that of Peru  then Called Coya, as that of Mexico  then named Tyrambel, were mighty & proud Kingdomes, in Armes, Shipping, and Riches: So Mighty, as at one time, (or at least within the space of 10. Yeares,) they both made two great Expeditions; They of Tirambel  through the Atlantique  to the Mediterrane Sea; and they of Coya through the South Sea vpon this our Island: And for the former of these, which was into Europe, the same Authour amongst you, (as it seemeth,) had some relation from the Egyptian Priest, whom he citeth."
  
  As is the case with all cryptic writings, it is best to sit back for moment and contemplate on what we might be able to infer. At its ending, this passage refers to an author who cites an Egyptian (presumably an ancient Egyptian). What did the ancient Egyptians write? Answer: Books that needed to be decoded. "And for the former of these" (that is, for those of Tirambel ie. the Mexicans) "which was into Europe."  In other words, the book that needed to be decoded was taken from Mexico to Europe.
  
  I imagine that Tucker, Talbert, and Janick are going to be elated to learn that there is now external support for their VMS Made-in-Mexico theory!
  
  Curiously, around the year 1420 CE, Mexico might have been the only place in the world where it was possible to write a book in a language that would soon become extinct. Wikipedia notes "From 1430 onward, the Aztec Empire grew." And across much of Mexico, conquered peoples were forced to abandon their own language and adopt the Aztec language.
  
  To add a tidbit, the aforementioned "Gift of Tongues" might refer to the ability to write prophecies in the language spoken at the location where the prophesied event occurs. I will, of course, expand on that theme later.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 29-08-2019, 04:37 AM

  "Natives" usually means people who are indigenous to a particular region that's the topic of conversation. Depending where you are on the planet, it can be native Huns, Ainus, Zulus, Samis, or whoever happens to be the long-term inhabitants of a particular region.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 29-08-2019, 08:33 AM

  (29-08-2019, 04:37 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."Natives" usually means people who are indigenous to a particular region that's the topic of conversation. Depending where you are on the planet, it can be native Huns, Ainus, Zulus, Samis, or whoever happens to be the long-term inhabitants of a particular region.

  
  I was aware of everything you say and have just found what I wanted to know in an online etymological dictionary. For "Indian", it says "Applied to the aboriginal native inhabitants of the Americas from at least 1553," thereby confirming that the word was applied to native Americans prior to 1600.
  
  Granted that the rest of the cited work makes no further mention of India, but lots of mention of native Americans, it may very well be alluding to a native American language. However, in the context of prophecies, a few of which concern the Incas of Peru, the underlying language would have to be Quechua (quite knowable), not an extinct language of Mexico.
  
  The bottom line is that the swamp scenes look like a new arrivals experience, and undoubtedly the gals would have recorded those experiences in their native tongue, ie. one of the languages spoken in Spain or nearby: Hebrew, Spanish, Catalan, Occitan, maybe even Arabic. Thus, labels placed next to drawings of the gals, doubtless recording names like Arsende, Bruna, Corba, Rixende, Saissa, et cetera, would have been replaced by randomly selected glyphs of equal length, and similarly for the rest of the text. In brief, for quires 1 through 19, the drawings look real but the accompanying script may be pure gibberish.
  
  You say that the VMS is unfinished. Could sudden conquest by the Aztecs account for something like that?

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 29-08-2019, 01:10 PM

  (29-08-2019, 08:33 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[quote="-JKP-" pid='30306' dateline='1567049841']
  ...
  
  
  You say that the VMS is unfinished. Could sudden conquest by the Aztecs account for something like that?

  
  I didn't say it was unfinished. I believe there are signs that it was never finished, like missing initials (with space left for them), missing labels (in places where there were labels for similar objects). Small indications. It's my feeling that it wasn't quite finished (and who knows how many additional sections were intended that maybe never got started).
  
  These sorts of works—I like to think of them as medieval books of knowledge—were often created by fathers for their sons, or for professors for their students, or for students for their own research and professional references, and so many things can happen to interrupt their creation (which can take months or years)... death, illness, war, theft, change of location, change of profession...

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Koen G > 29-08-2019, 01:29 PM

  Even some of the most prestigious manuscripts were left unfinished. Indeed, even the most prestigious manuscript was unfinished when the brothers and their patron died in the same year.
  
  The medium allows for this though. An unfinished manuscript is not as disrupting as an unfinished painting.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 30-08-2019, 12:01 AM

  (29-08-2019, 01:10 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I didn't say it was unfinished. I believe there are signs that it was never finished, like missing initials (with space left for them), missing labels (in places where there were labels for similar objects). Small indications. It's my feeling that it wasn't quite finished (and who knows how many additional sections were intended that maybe never got started).
  
  These sorts of works—I like to think of them as medieval books of knowledge—were often created by fathers for their sons, or for professors for their students, or for students for their own research and professional references, and so many things can happen to interrupt their creation (which can take months or years)... death, illness, war, theft, change of location, change of profession...

  
  Thanks JP. I didn't notice all those nuances. But I did notice that many pages appear to have been removed from the manuscript even prior to the numbering. For example, it seems that ten pages of clothed zodiacs and two pages of nude zodiacs are nowhere to be found. On the other hand, the numbering suggests that two folios are missing from quire 20 but I think it is complete: 162 red stars mark out 161 ranges of script, corresponding to 39 prophecies of four verses each and one Incantation with four verses plus one title line.
  
  If the numbering was really meant to signal that two more folios belong in quire 20, I would take them to be folio 57 (the Sigillum Dei) and folio 58 (two pages of starred text). Thus, in the Gift of Tongues passage, folio 58 could be the "Letter" (introduction) and quire 20 would be the "Booke". The script on some pages of quire 20 looks more compressed than on other pages. Do you think they may have been starting to run low on parchment?
  
  
  
  Curiously, the subtitle of the cited was "A Work Unfinished" and that is probably what led me astray.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 30-08-2019, 12:16 AM

  (29-08-2019, 01:29 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Even some of the most prestigious manuscripts were left unfinished. Indeed, even the most prestigious manuscript was unfinished when the brothers and their patron died in the same year.
  
  The medium allows for this though. An unfinished manuscript is not as disrupting as an unfinished painting.

  
  Koen G,
  
  If you want to refute the Made-In-Mexico theory, I suggest you arrange for a protein analysis test on bison. It's my understanding that they checked protein with virtually every European animal there is, even squirrels, but completely ignored the New World. Bison, of course, is the only Mexican animal that could have served as a source for VMS parchment in the 15th century. Perhaps they can reuse the old samples for that purpose making it unnecessary to touch the manuscript afresh.
  
  And while you are in contact with Yale, you can try convincing them to do radiocarbon tests on the binder and on the swamp, pharmaceutical and text sections of the manuscript. It's sad that so many people are trying so hard to learn new things about the VMS when a lot of useful information is readily attainable but not made available.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  -JKP- > 30-08-2019, 05:40 AM

  Why do you think there are so many zodiac folios missing? The clothed and nude figures don't have to be symmetrical.

• RE: Morten St George Theory

  Morten St. George > 30-08-2019, 12:06 PM

  (30-08-2019, 05:40 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Why do you think there are so many zodiac folios missing? The clothed and nude figures don't have to be symmetrical.

  
  There are two pages for the sign of Aries, one clothed and one nude, and there are two pages for the sign of Taurus, one clothed and one nude. What makes you think it shouldn't be the same for all twelve signs of the zodiac?
  
  I have the opinion (I wouldn't call it a theory) that the original VMS was much larger and that many pages were removed
  
  1. To hide the European identity of the VMS authors, and
  
  2. To hide the New World migration of the VMS authors.
  
  It just so happens that the word "Aries" makes two appearances in the VMS prophecies and if it weren't for that, we might not be seeing any clothed zodiacs at all.
  
  
  
  Ironically, in the world of the esoteric, the word "Aries" has nothing to do with the zodiac but simply alludes to the Aryans, from the word "Arie", French for Aria, the old name of Afghanistan. Apparently the VMS authors didn't know that, and hence we see an interest in astrology when none was merited.
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