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Morten St George Theory
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 24-08-2019, 10:03 PM
(24-08-2019, 07:39 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(offtopic)
Our first one thousand post thread!!!!
I am impressed by the tenacity shown
Whatever else, I hope this thread has opened up horizons for VMS research. Particularly on the marginalia, we've come a long way from the goat's milk! -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 24-08-2019, 10:06 PM
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RE: Morten St George Theory
-JKP- > 24-08-2019, 10:07 PM
You always talk as though one person's interpretation is everyone's interpretation. You group us all together. Morten and the rest of the world.
But that's not how it is. We all have different opinions about the VMS and you frequently ignore that fact. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 24-08-2019, 10:39 PM
(24-08-2019, 09:54 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.All your theories are based on a towering heap of assumptions. That is not the definition of an open mind. That is tunnel-vision.
I had been searching for the source of certain prophecies for more than thirty years when I first encountered the VMS. It was a count of red stars in quire 20 (matching the number of published verses) and then the marginalia on the last page that left little doubt that quire 20 was the source of the ancient prophecies that the VMS authors wanted to conceal.
Thus, in effect, we know what quire 20 has to say and now it is only a matter of determining the mechanism that takes from the Voynichese script to the published output. I do not expect you to accept my theories, but I would certainly like you to stay open minded, and I look forward to your help in determining how we maneuver around the three wheels of divine names. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Monica Yokubinas > 25-08-2019, 12:02 AM
(24-08-2019, 06:40 PM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(24-08-2019, 02:55 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Good grief!!
JP, Know that the VMS along with the marginalia within it were a product of the European underworld that recorded knowledge or expounded beliefs that were forbidden by the dominating religion of the epoch. For self-protection, texts of the underworld would typically employ encryption, deception, trickery, anything to ensure that they said nothing truthful that could be easily understood.
You recently revealed yourself as gullible to their trickery when you stated that the "mich" on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. means "me". Sure, "mich" is the German word for "me", but you ignore the fact that "me" is utterly meaningless in the given context. And you brush aside my finding that a sequence of Roman numerals on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. add up to the number of a certain prophecy and that words found in that marginalia are likewise found in said prophecy. It was a prophecy attributed to someone called (mich)el so surely that has to be the answer.
Did my theory that quire 20 contains prophecies and not cooking instructions upset you? Doubtless, you were looking forward to retrieving those secret recipes and trying them out, but that is unlikely to happen. On the other hand, fortunately, there may be a few people here and there who are interested in ancient prophecies.
Nearly all medieval manuscripts were written to be comprehensible and you might want to concentrate on them for applying your talents. The surviving texts of the underworld, mainly the VMS, parts of the Summa Sacrae Magicae and a few texts written in Hebrew, were clearly intended for people with an open mind.
The last paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is discussing a diaspora. I need to change a little bit of the introduction that i did a year ago, but here it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the first paragraph i have not shared with anyone yet but they are NOT predictions of the future. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 25-08-2019, 02:55 AM
(25-08-2019, 12:02 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The last paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is discussing a diaspora. I need to change a little bit of the introduction that i did a year ago, but here it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the first paragraph i have not shared with anyone yet but they are NOT predictions of the future.
Thanks Monica. I have downloaded your paper and will take a look at it when I get the chance. Discussion of the diaspora is often seen in the writings of people with ties to VMS encryption, but they lived mostly in Spain and southern France, though contact with Turkey was certainly possible granted that travel across Muslim lands was permitted.
In general, I am skeptical of any decoding based on a limited section of text. I feel that a genuine decoding should be consistently applicable across a very wide section of script and that the output needs to be intelligible throughout. But for the moment I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I see you are put off by predictions of the future but it was precisely prophecies that seemed to predict the assassination of a Pope and the fall of the Church of Rome that resulted in creation of VMS encryption. Without encryption, the publishers of such predictions would not live very long in medieval Europe.
I think I need to start posting some of the prophecies for technical considerations (omitting discussion of prophetic content) in order to gather the thoughts of JP and others. Maybe I'll prepare something to post in a few days. As you may surmise, certain things about what underlies the Voynichese script can be learned from one glance at the decoded output.
Cheers, Morten
PS. You might want to check your URL. It may require a colon after the https. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Monica Yokubinas > 25-08-2019, 12:11 PM
(25-08-2019, 02:55 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
(25-08-2019, 12:02 AM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The last paragraph of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is discussing a diaspora. I need to change a little bit of the introduction that i did a year ago, but here it is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. the first paragraph i have not shared with anyone yet but they are NOT predictions of the future.
Thanks Monica. I have downloaded your paper and will take a look at it when I get the chance. Discussion of the diaspora is often seen in the writings of people with ties to VMS encryption, but they lived mostly in Spain and southern France, though contact with Turkey was certainly possible granted that travel across Muslim lands was permitted.
In general, I am skeptical of any decoding based on a limited section of text. I feel that a genuine decoding should be consistently applicable across a very wide section of script and that the output needs to be intelligible throughout. But for the moment I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
I see you are put off by predictions of the future but it was precisely prophecies that seemed to predict the assassination of a Pope and the fall of the Church of Rome that resulted in creation of VMS encryption. Without encryption, the publishers of such predictions would not live very long in medieval Europe.
I think I need to start posting some of the prophecies for technical considerations (omitting discussion of prophetic content) in order to gather the thoughts of JP and others. Maybe I'll prepare something to post in a few days. As you may surmise, certain things about what underlies the Voynichese script can be learned from one glance at the decoded output.
Cheers, Morten
PS. You might want to check your URL. It may require a colon after the https.
I went back and edited the link. Thank you for letting me know. So far I have over 75 pages translated, or in the stages of being translated. I have not typed them all up yet, but I have jumped around the book to make sure it works. The star pages talk about the stars with good omens on one chart and bad ones on the other. Childbirth, using the cord blood for medicine, menses, and abortion are prevalent in the bath pages and recipe pages. Plant pages are not always about plants, some plants are poisons for harming another, and one of the plant talks of female genital mutilation.
Yet I only have a few of the starred paragraphs done. Some talk of grandmother being taken, that she was innocent, and she wants the people of the village to rise up and help.
If I find any predictions, you will be the first to know. Would be quite interesting.
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RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-08-2019, 05:26 AM
(25-08-2019, 12:11 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I went back and edited the link. Thank you for letting me know. So far I have over 75 pages translated, or in the stages of being translated. I have not typed them all up yet, but I have jumped around the book to make sure it works. The star pages talk about the stars with good omens on one chart and bad ones on the other. Childbirth, using the cord blood for medicine, menses, and abortion are prevalent in the bath pages and recipe pages. Plant pages are not always about plants, some plants are poisons for harming another, and one of the plant talks of female genital mutilation.
Yet I only have a few of the starred paragraphs done. Some talk of grandmother being taken, that she was innocent, and she wants the people of the village to rise up and help.
If I find any predictions, you will be the first to know. Would be quite interesting.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been busy.
I did have a look at your paper. While not ruling out the possibility that you may be on to something, I feel that your approach is too imprecise to help me with quire 20 and perhaps too subjective to gain widespread acceptance as a true decoding.
For my approach, I'm relying on the marginalia which points us to divine-name encryption. This type encryption derives from divine-name theology which in turn appears to have been inspired by a mystic classic called the Sefer Yetzirah (SY). In certain circles the SY was viewed as divine revelation during medieval times. This here is its first sentence:
'In thirty-two wondrous Paths of Wisdom (the Hidden One) engraved Yah, Eternal of Hosts, God of Israel, Elohim, Living Elohim, Almighty God, High and Exalted, Dwelling in Eternity, Holy Be His Name, and created world with three books: by counting, by speaking, and by writing.'
In its original language, the last three words of the passage were:
ספר ספר ספר
I was trying to determine the order of appearance of the three books but, as you can see, they all look the same! (Your approach to the decoding reminded me of this problem
)
On counting (Sephar), the SY is presumably referring to itself granted that the counting of things dominates throughout. The date of origin of the SY is hotly debated but I found an indication for dating its delivery to around 585 CE, just a few years prior to the creation of the geonic schools in Babylonia.
On speaking (Sippur), the SY was thought to be referring to the Torah, verbally transmitted to Moses on Mount Sinai. However, with Alla included in the list of divine names, and with references to Alla found in the medieval magical texts not to mention the VMS marginalia, one cannot exclude the possibility that the Hidden One spoke to Muhammad on the Mountain of Light, 609 to 632 CE.
On writing (Sepher), the SY is, of course, referring to the VMS prophecies, and that is precisely what we are trying to prove with a fresh decoding, that quire 20 holds the last of the three books. Note that medieval texts ranging from the Sepher ha-Bahir to the 13th-century commentaries of Isaac the Blind and Nachmanides leave little doubt the written book was those prophecies.
A discussion on how those three books led to our modern world is beyond the scope of this forum!
To illustrate how divine-name decryption might function, have a look at this:
![[Image: img-divine-decrypt-17.jpg]](http://manuscrit-de-voynich.com/img-divine-decrypt-17.jpg)
The second row is the first 17 (first letter only) of the 72 divine names on the Sigillum Dei.
The third row is the first of four sets of 17 glyphs on the alphabet wheel, f57v.
The fourth row is the first 17 glyphs (including spaces) of a VMS paragraph from quire 20.
It might not look like much, only one glyph to Latin letter conversion (column 12) in the first 17 columns but consider this:
וחוזר הגלגל פנים ואחור
The wheels oscillate forwards and backwards. These rows move, each time giving rise to new alignments, and one by one we continue to convert glyphs into letters of the Latin alphabet.
I see you say on your web page that you have an "obsession with the translation of the Voynich Manuscript." I'm impressed!
In case you're interested, I'll post more information on divine-name decryption in the coming days. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Monica Yokubinas > 27-08-2019, 12:41 PM
(27-08-2019, 05:26 AM)Morten St. George Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Thank you and would love to see what you have come up with. Some of the glyphs on this page are alchemical symbols and runes. I have it partially translated, but not transcribed yet, as I lost (somewhere in my documents) the rune illustration for the glyphs and forgot which database/alphabet I found them in. I looked at so many, i cannot even remember to whom they were associated with.(25-08-2019, 12:11 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I went back and edited the link. Thank you for letting me know. So far I have over 75 pages translated, or in the stages of being translated. I have not typed them all up yet, but I have jumped around the book to make sure it works. The star pages talk about the stars with good omens on one chart and bad ones on the other. Childbirth, using the cord blood for medicine, menses, and abortion are prevalent in the bath pages and recipe pages. Plant pages are not always about plants, some plants are poisons for harming another, and one of the plant talks of female genital mutilation.
Yet I only have a few of the starred paragraphs done. Some talk of grandmother being taken, that she was innocent, and she wants the people of the village to rise up and help.
If I find any predictions, you will be the first to know. Would be quite interesting.
Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been busy.
I did have a look at your paper. While not ruling out the possibility that you may be on to something, I feel that your approach is too imprecise to help me with quire 20 and perhaps too subjective to gain widespread acceptance as a true decoding.
For my approach, I'm relying on the marginalia which points us to divine-name encryption. This type encryption derives from divine-name theology which in turn appears to have been inspired by a mystic classic called the Sefer Yetzirah (SY). In certain circles the SY was viewed as divine revelation during medieval times. This here is its first sentence:
'In thirty-two wondrous Paths of Wisdom (the Hidden One) engraved Yah, Eternal of Hosts, God of Israel, Elohim, Living Elohim, Almighty God, High and Exalted, Dwelling in Eternity, Holy Be His Name, and created world with three books: by counting, by speaking, and by writing.'
In its original language, the last three words of the passage were:
ספר ספר ספר
I was trying to determine the order of appearance of the three books but, as you can see, they all look the same! (Your approach to the decoding reminded me of this problem )
On counting (Sephar), the SY is presumably referring to itself granted that the counting of things dominates throughout. The date of origin of the SY is hotly debated but I found an indication for dating its delivery to around 585 CE, just a few years prior to the creation of the geonic schools in Babylonia.
On speaking (Sippur), the SY was thought to be referring to the Torah, verbally transmitted to Moses on Mount Sinai. However, with Alla included in the list of divine names, and with references to Alla found in the medieval magical texts not to mention the VMS marginalia, one cannot exclude the possibility that the Hidden One spoke to Muhammad on the Mountain of Light, 609 to 632 CE.
On writing (Sepher), the SY is, of course, referring to the VMS prophecies, and that is precisely what we are trying to prove with a fresh decoding, that quire 20 holds the last of the three books. Note that medieval texts ranging from the Sepher ha-Bahir to the 13th-century commentaries of Isaac the Blind and Nachmanides leave little doubt the written book was those prophecies.
A discussion on how those three books led to our modern world is beyond the scope of this forum!
To illustrate how divine-name decryption might function, have a look at this:
The second row is the first 17 (first letter only) of the 72 divine names on the Sigillum Dei.
The third row is the first of four sets of 17 glyphs on the alphabet wheel, f57v.
The fourth row is the first 17 glyphs (including spaces) of a VMS paragraph from quire 20.
It might not look like much, only one glyph to Latin letter conversion (column 12) in the first 17 columns but consider this:
וחוזר הגלגל פנים ואחור
The wheels oscillate forwards and backwards. These rows move, each time giving rise to new alignments, and one by one we continue to convert glyphs into letters of the Latin alphabet.
I see you say on your web page that you have an "obsession with the translation of the Voynich Manuscript." I'm impressed!
In case you're interested, I'll post more information on divine-name decryption in the coming days.
Here is why i believe it is a semitic language, using a reverse Hebrew script in its makeup You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. -
RE: Morten St George Theory
Morten St. George > 27-08-2019, 10:45 PM
(27-08-2019, 12:41 PM)Monica Yokubinas Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you and would love to see what you have come up with. Some of the glyphs on this page are alchemical symbols and runes. I have it partially translated, but not transcribed yet, as I lost (somewhere in my documents) the rune illustration for the glyphs and forgot which database/alphabet I found them in. I looked at so many, i cannot even remember to whom they were associated with.
Here is why i believe it is a semitic language, using a reverse Hebrew script in its makeup You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I have similar organizational problems! It seems I am forever wasting countless hours searching for things I know I read but cannot remember where I read it.
I once found a connection (sometimes with depiction in reverse or upside down) between many VMS glyphs and diverse numerals from the ancient or medieval Middle East and Asia. I believe JP said (but don't quote me on that) that many of the glyphs come from Latin shorthand.
On alchemy, I checked out d'Imperio's table of correlations by acquiring a copy of her source from Germany, namely, Geßmann's Geheimsymbole. It turns out that the correlated symbols come from tables of diverse origin so it was impossible to ascertain a concerted source for the handful of glyphs that resemble alchemy symbols.
For me, a great mystery is why the decoders of quire 20 invested so heavily in procuring the massive encyclopedia of plants (Herball, 1597). It seems they did it because they wanted to identify the plants, but if they could read the botanical pages, why would they think those plants were real and not imaginary? I can imagine two reasons why the quire 20 decoders might not have been able to read the botanical pages:
Scenario 1. Quires 1 though 19 were originally written without encryption in a widely known European language. Subsequently, all the drawings were copied over to fresh parchment, but instead of also copying the writing, they replaced the Latin letters with glyphs drawn from quire 20, presumably to have those pages serve as a frontal mask for protecting the prophecies at the back. In this case, the script in quires 1 through 19 would be gibberish.
Scenario 2. The glyphs of quire 20 were reused to represent the sounds of a language that was unknown to the 16th-century decoders of quire 20 and also unknown to our contemporary cryptographers. That would leave an opening for your decoding efforts!
Indeed, it seems that divine-name decryption may require longer strings of text in order to function properly. I cannot see how it could work, for example, for a label of, say, just five to ten characters because no matter where you place them on the wheel, some of the needed Latin letters are likely to remain out of reach.
In quire 20, there are no labels and no short paragraphs. There are, however, short end of paragraph lines, which likely implies that the entire paragraph as a unit needs to be wrapped around the wheels.