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Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
- Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
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RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
Antonio García Jiménez > 17-12-2024, 10:53 AM
I agree with ReneZ that the VM has information that deserves to be known. To say in the 21st century that a book made with so much work in the 15th century is not worth knowing is a meaningless statement that despises the historical culture of humanity. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
Koen G > 17-12-2024, 12:09 PM
(17-12-2024, 10:53 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree with ReneZ that the VM has information that deserves to be known. To say in the 21st century that a book made with so much work in the 15th century is not worth knowing is a meaningless statement that despises the historical culture of humanity.
I agree to a large extent. 99% of what was written in the 15th century has no immediate value for us today. Much of it would have been theological, (pseudo-)historical or pseudo-scientific.
I can think of certain types of finds that would be considered more important than average, of course. An earlier attestation of a Bible text. Copies of lost works of fundamental scholars. Autographs by important medieval authors...
The Voynich won't likely be any of those. But saying that its contents are of no value is like saying that the majority of texts produced in the Middle Ages are of no value. The digitized manuscripts we see online are the cream of the crop, and still they are mostly about the Bible, or linking something else to the Bible, or approaches we would today consider superstition or pseudoscience. That is our history.
The Voynich text won't be as valuable as discovering the lost plays of Aeschylus. But probably more valuable than the umpteenth copy of the Speculum Humanae Salvationis, since it will add more to our understanding of what people did and thought in the early 15th century.
This is the most famous manuscript in the world. Learning what is in it, no matter what, will have a greater impact than finding yet another book of Psalms. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
Aga Tentakulus > 17-12-2024, 03:54 PM
I don't think it brings up anything really worth knowing. I think it will rather show an insight when something was still in its infancy. For example, the techniques of distilling schnapps were still in their infancy. I think it will give an insight from someone who was not so well known.
I also don't see a direct sale from the author. Somehow it doesn't make sense. ‘Who wrote it? Myself. Haha..... 10 guilders’
I'm thinking more of spoils of war where the mercenary later sold it to someone who knew who would pay a lot of money for something like that.
Example, one of many.
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Translated with DeepL.com (free version) -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
R. Sale > 17-12-2024, 09:51 PM
If water is fire (as of 1550), then the proposed VMs "fire salamander" is in a pool of green fire - along with several other companions. That must be why mythical Melusine is popping out of her fishy wetsuit. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
nablator > 17-12-2024, 10:42 PM
(17-12-2024, 09:51 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If water is fire (as of 1550), then the proposed VMs "fire salamander" is in a pool of green fire - along with several other companions. That must be why mythical Melusine is popping out of her fishy wetsuit.
The editio princeps of the Scala is dated 1550, but the first (lost?) manuscript was probably written in the early 15th century or even a bit earlier, I guess: nobody knows. Known manuscripts are all 15th and 16th century: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The Cambridge ms. is a good copy, much less corrupted than the 1550 printed edition, where they misread, rewrote or skipped the problematic parts of a bad copy, as usual. There is no critical edition unfortunately. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
R. Sale > 18-12-2024, 08:20 PM
@nablator
Thanks for the info. That's some crazy stuff. Got to get some of that "Spame of Luna" (Turba p. 44). Part of it seems like trying to copperplate metal slugs and pass them off as gold coins. The gold doesn't need to be real.
The VMs drawing is somewhat ambiguous. Salamander is one possibility. Or an otter for an alternative. I can't tell a depiction of an Agnus Dei from a Golden Fleece. And if it is interpreted as a salamander, is it as an alchemical fire salamander? Then, on the alchemical conversion that water is fire, that changes the VMs illustration to a pool of green fire. After that, what would distinguish one of the green pools from all the other green pools? If all the Quire 13 nymphs are wading in pools of green fire, that would require some readjustment of perspective. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
nablator > 18-12-2024, 08:56 PM
(18-12-2024, 08:20 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks for the info. That's some crazy stuff. Got to get some of that "Spame of Luna" (Turba p. 44).
In the A.E. Waite translation, yes.
(18-12-2024, 08:20 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Then, on the alchemical conversion that water is fire, that changes the VMs illustration to a pool of green fire. After that, what would distinguish one of the green pools from all the other green pools?
Good question and I don't have an answer. I'm just collecting texts and noticing things as I read them.
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RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
bi3mw > 19-12-2024, 04:56 PM
I don't like broken links. Here is the correction to the Liber de arte distillandi :
Liber de arte distillandi de compositis
Author(s): Brunschwig, Hieronymus, approximately 1450-approximately 1512
Contributor(s): Grüninger, Johann, -1532?, printer
Publication: [Strassburg : Johann Grüninger, 1512]
Language(s): German
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view... -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
cvetkakocj@rogers.com > 19-12-2024, 09:09 PM
(17-12-2024, 09:51 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If water is fire (as of 1550), then the proposed VMs "fire salamander" is in a pool of green fire - along with several other companions. That must be why mythical Melusine is popping out of her fishy wetsuit.
A fire salamander was a medieval symbol of the Bogomils, a Slavic religious sect originating in Bulgaria and spreading all over Balkans, in Northern Italy wit the centre in Milan (where they were called Patareni) and in France where they evolved into Cathars. In Bosnia, where the Bogomil religion existed as a state religion separated from Rome and from Byzantium, the fire salamander was a 'sacred animal' - an alchemical code word for the medieval Church critics and reformers who were considered so dangerous that were serious threat to the Roman Church. In the myths, the salamander can be so dangerous that it can poison the fruit on the tree if it entwines around the tree trunk, or it can poison the well water, if it touches that water. In this myth, he is related to two other powerful alchemical symbols: tree of knowledge and water, as a source of life.
The cult of Salamander was very well known throughout Bosnia, where he was called Žviždiak, because this mythological lizard was said to be able to whistle so loud that could make people deaf.In Bosnia, Bogomils formed their own state religion, which was separated from Roma for 400 years (until the mid-15th century).
The Salamander in the VM is the only animal that carries a star on a string; another animal with a star on the string is fish which was the early symbol for Jesus. (I suppose the two fishes represent human-divine aspect of Jesus).
Salamander had very important role in folklore and mythology, alchemy and heraldry. Most myths are related to the European fire salamanders which can be a perfect symbol for duality (light and darkness) - because of their black body with large golden yellow spots.
In the medieval times, salamanders were often depicted satirically.
Because of its physical features and his characteristic appearance during the rainy stormy weather, salamander was a perfect symbol for the religious sect of Bogomils, Cathars, and medieval humanists, who were using the written word to spread Biblical, gnostic and apocryphal books and ideas in vernacular language.
In the alchemical literature, salamander was mentioned by Leonardo da Vinci, who stated that 'salamander has no digestive organs, and gets no food but from the fire, in which it constantly renews its scaly skin'. This could be an allusion to a mystical Christ, a spirit of Jesus, being progressively strengthened by the 'burning fire of love'. This is also how Paracelsus in the 16t century interpreted it.
The Salamander is also mentioned in Eschenbach's Parzival, along with Prester John. -
RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS
bi3mw > 19-12-2024, 09:43 PM
(19-12-2024, 09:09 PM)cvetkakocj@rogers.com Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Salamander is also mentioned in Eschenbach's Parzival, along with Prester John.
Here are a few nice verses.
(offtopic)
Original Text ( Parzival ):
----------------------------
Der wâpenroc gap planken schîn.
ime berge zAgremuntîn
die würme salamander
in worhten zein ander
in dem heizen fiure.
dar unde ein wâpenroc erschein,
Rüch gebildet, snêvar.
dar an stuont her unde dar
tiwer steine gein ein ander,
die würme salamander
in worhten in dem fiure.
daz spanbette zôch zein ander
strängen von salamander:
daz wârn undr im diu ricseil.
ich stach vor Agremuntin
gein eime riter fiurin :
wan min kursit salamander,
aspindê min schilt der ander,
ich waer verbrunnen von der tjost.
Translation to English ( ChatGPT ):
--------------------------------------
* The weapon-robe gaped, shining bright,
In a mountain in Agremuntîn live salamanders
they belong to the snakes and they wove
this fabric in the heat of the fire.
There a weapon-robe appeared,
Smoke-shaped, like snow revered.
Therein stood here and there,
Precious stones arrayed with care.
The salamander worms,
wrought within the fiery burns.
The spindle bed drew toward the other,
twisted strands of salamander tether:
It was beneath them, the noble ropes lay.
* I fought at Agremuntîn’s gate,
against a fiery knight of fate.
Had it not been for my Kursît [1] of Salamander
and my shield of Aspindê [2],
I would have been burned by the joust.
*Translation taken from another source.
[1] A knight's garment worn over the tunic.
[2] Name of a non-combustible, particularly resistant type of wood.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Wolfram von Eschenbach, Parzival (vol. 2), Diebold Lauber workshop, c. 1443-1446
A duel between Parzival and the half-brother and pagan Feirefiz ( left ) in his “exotic” armor.