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Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

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• Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  Koen G > 11-12-2024, 05:47 PM

  Regarding the salamander of fire, it must be considered that the VM creature has a forked tail, which most likely denotes that it is an aquatic being. (Which is, in our everyday understanding, perhaps a better place for a salamander).

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  R. Sale > 11-12-2024, 08:09 PM

  The thing about fire salamanders is that it's a *two-part* deal. It's the salamander plus the fire. Without the fire, there's a problem. The VMs critter in Post # 378 could be an otter in the water.
  
  This is a place where removing green paint might emphasize the way this critter was drawn or has that been done before?
  
  In the closest comparative illustration (Harley 334), the mermaid has four fish as 'companions'. In the VMs they have been given a different interpretation as various critters. Is this just a passing coincidence or was there conscious motivation involved in the VMs artistic choices?

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  ReneZ > 12-12-2024, 01:22 AM

  (11-12-2024, 04:12 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (10-12-2024, 11:11 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.In Post #373, this reference : Liber hermetis de blchkmkb (alchimia)
  
  It is interesting to note the method of 'encryption' used at that time. It is just a partial cypher, moving only the vowels by plus one letter. (a > b and i/j > k) Fairly effective considering the simplicity. What if consonants were also moved by a different value?

  
  Well, it's a gimmick, not a full alphabet substitution cipher. With consonant substitution it would be a full alphabet substitution cipher.
  
  I wonder why they did it.

  
  I think this has been discussed here before, but it is a relatively common cipher usually called 'bonifatius' or 'boniface'.
  
  Contrary to what many people believe, ciphers are not always meant to be hard to break. In some situations, it is sufficient to hide something from a casual glance, basically to force someone to take time before being able to read it.
  
  In some cases it was also used to avoid writing an uncomfortable word. 
  Still used a lot today. 
  I mean, "sh*t" does not really hide anything but it allows me to abide by the forum rules (I hope ;-) ).

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  nablator > 15-12-2024, 05:54 PM

  (11-12-2024, 08:09 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The thing about fire salamanders is that it's a *two-part* deal. It's the salamander plus the fire. Without the fire, there's a problem.

  
  But our fire is water. No problem.
  
  Guy de Montanor's Scala philosophorum, Cambridge, Trinity College, Ms. O.8.9, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
     
  

  Quote:Item ignis quem tibi ostendimus est aqua. Et ignis noster est ignis et non ignis. Et per attractionem aëris, viget spiritus, ...

  
  A few lines later:
  
  

  Quote:Et similiter omnium sine ingressione alterius rei super eo, excepto calore conservativo & nutritivo, qui ingreditur super eo, convertitur de statu in statum, & dividitur de re in rem, & fit pullus a nidulo volans, sicut illud a quo habuit radicem & principium.

  
  

  Google translate Wrote:And similarly all things, without the ingress of another thing upon them, except the conservative and nutritive heat which enters upon them, are converted from state to state, and are divided from thing to thing, and become a chick flying from the nest, like that from which it had its root and beginning.

  
  The layered mountain with maybe a nest, a bird in it, and a bird flying above on f86v3 might have illustrated this text.
  
  Note: several pages are missing in the 1550 printed edition and it contains only the first book that ends f. 29r of Ms. O.8.9.
  
  The second book starts with a description of a process so intricate, with so many steps named with letters of the alphabet, that it looks like a substitution cipher key. No wonder it was skipped in the printed edition.
  
     

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  nablator > 16-12-2024, 07:58 PM

  (12-12-2020, 12:47 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some time ago I made a few comparisons to Maier's and Milius's emblems. They really have a surprising resemblance to some of the VMs images. In fact, they are considered not actual because of their late date, therefore I searched for an earlier example. We discussed it at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. But saying about the 17th century examples, my favourite one is the emblem from The Philosophia reformata of J. D. Mylius. 1622 - the two rocks, the birds in a nest, the Earth between the rocks (T/O map implies the Earth, as well).
  

  
  The illustration is indeed from Mylius' Philosophia Reformata (colorized) but the text it illustrates is actually Guy de Montanor's Scala Philosophorum, shamelessly plagiarized: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The central figure is similar to the 2nd emblem of the Atalanta Fugiens: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  
  The salamander is mentioned only much later on page 315: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
  "ideo philosophi phoenicem et Salamandrem vocarunt." The phoenix is another symbol for the fire salamander.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  bi3mw > 16-12-2024, 10:08 PM

  (15-12-2024, 05:54 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The second book starts with a description of a process so intricate, with so many steps named with letters of the alphabet, that it looks like a substitution cipher key. No wonder it was skipped in the printed edition.

  
  Do you have a link to this MS ?

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  nablator > 16-12-2024, 10:38 PM

  (16-12-2024, 10:08 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

  (15-12-2024, 05:54 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The second book starts with a description of a process so intricate, with so many steps named with letters of the alphabet, that it looks like a substitution cipher key. No wonder it was skipped in the printed edition.

  
  Do you have a link to this MS ?

  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  GlennM > 17-12-2024, 02:24 AM

  I will digress in saying that the text has information worth knowing and paying for at the time. It represents study, artistry, and a command of Latin. It was sold to someone who apppreciated that the written contents were empowering. In short, this is everything the Voynich is not.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  ReneZ > 17-12-2024, 03:07 AM

  The Voynich MS appears to have information worth knowing.
  Its owner may have easily claimed that he could read it. Nobody would be able to judge whether that is true or not.
  
  This makes the book, in combination with its owner, valuable.
  Whether it would be sellable is a more difficult question, and one could argue back and forth about that for a long time.

• RE: Alchemical Symbolism in the VMS

  oshfdk > 17-12-2024, 09:50 AM

  (17-12-2024, 03:07 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This makes the book, in combination with its owner, valuable.

  
  I like the "in combination with its owner" part. I like the idea of someone presenting/creating an unreadable book of secrets that only the author could "read" (or maybe actually could read, if this is a cipher), as a way to guarantee one's life or freedom. For some reason the Voynich MS to me gives some vibes of a work produced in captivity. Something that could be created by a person(s) who had a lot of free time, nothing to occupy their mind with and not too picky in resources. Maybe the author(s) were given a bunch of assorted vellum and some inks and paints and left in their cell to "der mus del" it all by themselves.
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