Diane > 23-02-2017, 02:26 AM
Koen G > 23-02-2017, 08:14 AM
-JKP- > 23-02-2017, 08:42 AM
(23-02-2017, 02:26 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Sam and all,
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One matter that troubles me in reading analytical discussions of the written text that there seems to be so little allowance made for the disparity that exists between modern, standardised orthography and grammar and what we'd expect given conditions 'on the ground'. If a non-native tried to copy a text in a foreign script, t or to record the sounds of another language, even if they developed a regular system and had a perfect ear, the stats would surely not be exactly parallel to what we get using modern transcriptions, orthography and grammars. As proof, one only need consider the way that Chinese or Indian or Islamic sources record names of western people and places - and the way Latins tried to do the same in the east.
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 09:43 AM
(22-02-2017, 09:47 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Vietnamese is a monosyllabic language. Therefore the words can be written with three letters. For words with two, three or four letters the number of available changes is limited. Therefore the effect is explainable in Vietnamese. In the case of the VMS we can found beside [qokedaiin] also the words [qokeedaiin], [qokedain], [qotedaiin], [okedaiin]. Even if we would interpret glyphs like , [ii] and [iii] as diacritical marks the explanation for Vietnamese would not fit for the VMS.
Moreover in the case of the VMS the network of similar words is more homogeneous then for Vietnamese. In some way all words are similar to each other.
One reason for this effect is that common word types ending with "iin", "ol" and "dy" are combined with common prefixes like "d", "ch" and "qo". The following table combines all typical 'suffixes' and 'prefixes' and describes this way the main landmarks within the network of similar words for the VMS:
prefix aiin ol dy
none aiin ol dy
d- daiin dol ddy
ch- chaiin chol chedy
o- okaiin okol okedy
qo- qokaiin qokol qokedy
Quote:Nick Pelling has described this effect this way "a reconstructed Voynichese 'dictionary' would, to a modern computer scientist’s eyes, look very much as if it had been generated or permuted by some means." [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.].
Quote:Quote:Quote:But did this mean that we should assume that the text of the VMS represents a monosyllabic language? One feature that doesn't seam to fit is the existence of composed word types like 'olchedy' beside words like 'ol' and 'chedy'. BTW: Also the Vietnamese text contains repeated phrases like 'người đàn'. A feature that is missing for the VMS.
I agree that it's not the same in every respect. The main similarity is the rigid phonotactic structure which allows the smaller words to be connected into a network.
In Mandarin Chinese, the two-syllable words are disconnected from the one-syllable word network because there are no words of intermediate length to bridge the gap between the two sets of words.
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To oversimplify a bit, in order to form a network in Mandarin Chinese you would need to be able to go from words with a CV structure to words with a CVCV structure, which obviously can't be done with an edit distance of 1. But in some languages you can go CV --> CCV --> CVCV.
This might not be exactly the same as Voynichese either but I think it's another step closer.
The problem is that we didn't know if the VMS contains language or not.
Quote:The Ethnologue catalogue of world languages currently lists 7099 living languages [You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.]. Therefore it is no surprise if it is possible to find for a single feature of the VMS a language with a similar feature.
Quote:What characteristic features for the VMS exists beside the network of similar words?
One feature is the weak word order. In a text using human language grammatical relations should exist between words, and these relations should result in words used together multiple times. Therefore, the lack of repetitive phrases is surprising for the VMS. Moreover since the weak word order exists beside the network of similar words the existence of both features together is a challenge anyway.
Quote:Another feature typical for the VMS is that the change from Currier A to Currier B. Typical for the sections using Currier A are word types similar to [daiin] and [chol] and typical for sections using Currier B are word types similar to [chedy] and types starting with [qo]. There is no clean distinction between Currier A and Currier B. Therefore it is not possible to explain this feature as two distinct languages. The following table shows the frequencies for some words typical for Currier A like [daiin] and [chol] and for Currier B like [chedy], [qokaiin] and [qokeedy]. This way it is possible to demonstrate a steady development from Currier A to Currier B.
section daiin aiin qokaiin chol[font=Courier New] qokol cheody chedy shedy qokeedy total word count[/font]
Herbal in Currier A 403 33 1 228[font=Courier New] 24 8 1 0 0 8087[/font]
Pharmaceutical (A) 99 39 2 45[font=Courier New] 20 18 1 1 0 2529[/font]
Astronomical 23 38 0 8[font=Courier New] 1 8 4 0 0 2136[/font]
Cosmological 36 56 18 19 5 7 24 17 4 2691
Herbal in Currier B 72 72 20 13 10 7 62 35 9 3233
Stars (B) 122 193 114 62 13 33 190 113 137 10673
Biological (B) 84 32 88 14 28 0 210 247 153 6911
The table shows that a word like [shedy] is only frequent in sections where also the word [chedy] is frequent. This is a hint for another stunning feature of the VMS. Similarly spelled word types co-occur within the VMS [see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.].
Quote:There are more interesting features for the VMS. For instance the line is a functional unit [see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.].
Quote:The shape of letter determines in some way how the letter is used within a word or within a line or within a paragraph. ...
Quote:With other words we search for a system with many interesting features at the same time. It is using the same or similar words but not the same or similar word sequences. Additionally this system is changing over time. Did this features really describe language?
-JKP- > 23-02-2017, 09:58 AM
Quote:SamG
"Yes, the properties of the VMS text are like those of an unencrypted natural language text, and cannot be explained in any other way that is known and can be demonstrated."
nickpelling > 23-02-2017, 10:01 AM
Koen G > 23-02-2017, 10:21 AM
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 10:41 AM
(23-02-2017, 09:58 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:SamG
"Yes, the properties of the VMS text are like those of an unencrypted natural language text, and cannot be explained in any other way that is known and can be demonstrated."
I prefer to think of it as having properties that make it LOOK like unencrypted natural language (Latin, to be exact), especially in the way a, o, and Latin shapes are incorporated into the text.
Quote:But, as I said up-thread (and have been saying all along), it is not structured like natural language, at least not if the spaces are interpreted literally (and even if you try to process the spaces in a different way, the positional rigidity remains).
-JKP- > 23-02-2017, 11:20 AM
(23-02-2017, 10:41 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.And interestingly enough, these glyphs that resemble vowels in the Roman alphabet also seem to behave as vowels, in that they occur in every word and delimit groups of 1-2 consonants. To me that suggests an obvious explanation: they are vowels.
And what other plausible explanation is there, really? Some unknown and undemonstrated cipher mechanism that magically produces ciphertext with any and all properties we might desire?
ReneZ > 23-02-2017, 11:35 AM
(23-02-2017, 10:41 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-02-2017, 09:58 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:SamG
"Yes, the properties of the VMS text are like those of an unencrypted natural language text, and cannot be explained in any other way that is known and can be demonstrated."
I prefer to think of it as having properties that make it LOOK like unencrypted natural language (Latin, to be exact), especially in the way a, o, and Latin shapes are incorporated into the text.
And interestingly enough, these glyphs that resemble vowels in the Roman alphabet also seem to behave as vowels, in that they occur in every word and delimit groups of 1-2 consonants. To me that suggests an obvious explanation: they are vowels.