-JKP- > 23-02-2017, 12:01 PM
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 12:18 PM
(23-02-2017, 11:35 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Suggesting that some symbols represent vowels assumes that the symbols represent either letters or sounds.
Both are natural assumptions, but I have very severe doubts about them.
Quote:The following symbols: q f p m y are demonstrably not to be identified with letters.
Koen G > 23-02-2017, 12:31 PM
Torsten > 23-02-2017, 12:45 PM
(23-02-2017, 09:43 AM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.First it was "no natural language has a word network". Now it's "no natural language with polysyllabic words has a word network". Looks like you're losing ground, but despite this you seem to have no interest in considering further evidence. Anyway, I've already talked about how a polysyllabic language could have the word network property, but despite the fact that you even quoted some of this below you did not actually address it in any way. Instead you're just mechanically repeating the same points over and over again.
Quote:Quote:The problem is that we didn't know if the VMS contains language or not.
Again, you did not actually address my point here at all.
Quote:Quote:What characteristic features for the VMS exists beside the network of similar words?
One feature is the weak word order. In a text using human language grammatical relations should exist between words, and these relations should result in words used together multiple times. Therefore, the lack of repetitive phrases is surprising for the VMS. Moreover since the weak word order exists beside the network of similar words the existence of both features together is a challenge anyway.
There are many things that could be said about the VMS word order, but do you really believe that there are no natural languages with "weak word order"?
Quote:Quote:The shape of letter determines in some way how the letter is used within a word or within a line or within a paragraph. ...
What's more likely is that how the words are structured has influenced the design of the script.
Quote:Quote:With other words we search for a system with many interesting features at the same time. It is using the same or similar words but not the same or similar word sequences. Additionally this system is changing over time. Did this features really describe language?
Yes, the properties of the VMS text are like those of an unencrypted natural language text, and cannot be explained in any other way that is known and can be demonstrated.
Now, how many of these properties that you have mentioned can be found in sample texts generated by your auto-copying code? My guess is: none.
ReneZ > 23-02-2017, 01:12 PM
(23-02-2017, 12:18 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Like I asked above: what other possibilities are there that can account for the evidence and that can actually be demonstrated to work/exist in practice? Obviously it is easy to discount the significance of any number of language-like properties of the VMS text by claiming that some nonexistent, undemonstrated procedure could have also produced them.
Quote:The following symbols: q f p m y are demonstrably not to be identified with letters.
I would like to see the demonstration of this, especially in the case of q and y. To oversimplify, I think f p m and g can probably be thought of as variant forms of other letters that occur in certain contexts, though there's much more that could be said about this.
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 02:34 PM
(23-02-2017, 12:45 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Maybe you should read your first posts in this thread again. Your point was that different "grammatical forms" are typical for languages in general and that no network of similar words exists. Now your point is that maybe a language exists with a network of similar words that is comparable with the VMS. Obviously I was able to convince you that a network of similar words exists for the VMS.
Quote:Quote:Quote:The shape of letter determines in some way how the letter is used within a word or within a line or within a paragraph. ...
What's more likely is that how the words are structured has influenced the design of the script.
No. For instance 'e' is common after 'k' and 't' but not after 'p' and 'f'. Words like 'peShol' and 'feeedy' are unusually rare whereas words like 'keeedy' and 'teeedy' are common for the VMS.
A second example is that a gallow glyph following 'l' is most likely a glyph 'k' or 'f' but not a 't' or 'p'. An example for a word using 'lk' is 'olkchedy' and an example for a word using 'lp' is 'olpchedy'.
With other words the shape of a glyph has some influence to the selection of the next glyph.
Quote:Quote:Now, how many of these properties that you have mentioned can be found in sample texts generated by your auto-copying code? My guess is: none.
It is not necessary to guess here. I have published an App to simulate the auto-copying hypothesis. See for instance my post from 08-02-2017, 07:23 PM in the thread. In fact all of the properties I know can be explained with the auto-copying hypothesis.
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 02:58 PM
(23-02-2017, 01:12 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No 'alternative' explanation than 'natural language' for the Voynich MS has ever been demonstrated successfully. but let's not forget at the same time that all attempts to demonstrate 'natural language' as the solution have failed quite miserably.
Quote:To come back to the topic, the network of similar words in the Voynich MS is clearly real, and there is no doubt that it originates from the 15th century.
It also exists in SE Asian languages, but that does not mean that the Voynich MS text represents such a language.
Sam G > 23-02-2017, 03:08 PM
ReneZ > 23-02-2017, 03:44 PM
Davidsch > 23-02-2017, 04:05 PM
(23-02-2017, 02:58 PM)Sam G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(23-02-2017, 01:12 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.No 'alternative' explanation than 'natural language' for the Voynich MS has ever been demonstrated successfully. but let's not forget at the same time that all attempts to demonstrate 'natural language' as the solution have failed quite miserably.
I don't agree with this. It's true that attempts to connect the VMS to known languages have all failed miserably, but that really just indicates that it's written in some otherwise unknown language.
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