The 'Chinese' Theory: For and Against
(24-08-2026, 03:09 PM)Linda wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I would like to see more [SBJ-SPS] correlations too.

I am still hacking at the automatic plotting of the matches.  Please wait a bit more.

But responding to your query about "qo" on another thread: one of the reasons why I think that qo is a prefix meaning "and" is this SBJ recipe

青石赤石黄石白石黑石脂等味甘平主黄疸泄利肠澼脓血阴蚀下血赤白邪气痈肿疽痔恶疮头疡
疥瘙久服补髓益气肥健不饥轻身延年五石脂各随五色补五脏生山谷


which apparently is to be parsed as
  • (A01) | 青石,      | qīng shí,              | Blue stone,                           
  • (A02) | 赤石,      | chì shí,               | red stone,                           
  • (A03) | 黄石,      | huáng shí,             | yellow stone,                         
  • (A04) | 白石,      | bái shí,               | white stone,                         
  • (A05) | 黑石脂,     | hēi shí zhī,           | black stone fat,                     
  • (A06) | 等:      | děng:                  | together:                             
  • (A1)  |  [味]甘,平。 | ··[wèi] gān, píng.     | ··[nature] sweet, neutral.           
  • (A3)  |  [主]      | ··[zhǔ]                | ··Mainly for]                         
  • (A31) |   黄疸,    | ····huáng dǎn,         | ····jaundice,                         
  • (A32) |   泄利,    | ····xiè lì,            | ····diarrhea and dysentery,           
  • (A33) |   肠澼脓血,  | ····cháng pì nóng xuè, | ····gut dysentery with pus and blood,'>
  • (A34) |   阴蚀,    | ····yīn shí,           | ····genital erosion/ulceration,       
  • (A35) |   下血赤白,  | ····xià xiè chì bái,   | ····blood and white pus in stool,     
  • (A36) |   邪气,    | ····xié qì,            | ····pathogenic energy,               
  • (A37) |   痈肿,    | ····yōng zhǒng,        | ····inflamed skin abscesses,         
  • (A38) |   疽痔,    | ····jū zhì,            | ····anorectal abscesses and fistulas, 
  • (A39) |   恶疮,    | ····è chuāng,          | ····festering sores,                 
  • (A3a) |   头疡,    | ····tóu yáng,          | ····scalp ulcers,                     
  • (A3b) |   疥瘙。    | ····jiè sào.           | ····scabies and itching.             
  • (A4)  |  [久服]     | ··[jiǔ fú]             | ··[Prolonged consumption]             
  • (A41) |   补髓,    | ····bǔ suǐ,            | ····tonifies the marrow,             
  • (A42) |   益气,    | ····yì qì,             | ····boosts the vital eergy,           
  • (A43) |   肥健,    | ····féi jiàn,          | ····makes one robust and strong,     
  • (A44) |   不饥,    | ····bù jī,             | ····prevents hunger,                 
  • (A45) |   轻身,    | ····qīng shēn,         | ····lightens the body,               
  • (A46) |   延年。    | ····yán nián.          | ····prolongs life.                   
  • (A5)  |  (五石脂,    | ··(wǔ shí zhī,         | ··(The five clays,                   
  • (A51) |   各随五色  | ····gè suí wǔ sè       | ····each according to the five colors 
  • (A52) |   补五脏。)   | ····bǔ wǔ zàng.)       | ····tonify the five solid organs.)   
  • (A6)  |  [生]山谷。   | ··[shēng] shān gǔ.     | ··[Provenance] mountain valleys.

In the SBJ, 石脂 "stone fat" means "clay". This entry is about clays of five colors, treated "together". The SBJ author factored out the 脂 "fat" from the first four clays, repeating only the 石 = "stone".  A free and more correct translation of the title of the entry is therefore
  • "Blue clay, red clay, yellow clay, white clay, and black clay, together". 
It is possible that the matching SPS parag was lost or is in one of the blocks of several parags mashed-up without breaks.  Otherwise, my best candidate at the moment is  f104v.22:
  • <f104v.22> <%>=ytchedy.qokchedy.qotchy.qokchedy.qokchd.lsaiin.?or.sheos.ytaiin.chey.tal=
  • <f104v.23> =tchey.qokchey.qochey.qodeey.qodaiin.chodaiin.chckhdy.dairar.otar.qotain.ol=
  • <f104v.24> =ykaiin.cheor.cheeey.daiiin.cheo,dal,aiin.chockhedy.chedaiin.otor.qokar,ary=
  • <f104v.25> =dsheey.qoykeey.lchedy.qokedaiin.ar,chcthy.daiin.cheey.sair.ol.aiin.chedy=
  • <f104v.26> =ysheor.cheey.qodaiin.chodar.chochs«<$>
Based on all the matches I have found, I am assuming that the fields (A1) [味] = "nature" (甘,平 = gān, píng = "sweet, neutral") and (A6) [生] = "provenance" (山谷 = "mountain valleys") were omitted by the VMS Author from all recipes.  The first only makes sense in the context of the theory of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM), and the second would be useless even in China, more so in Europe.  

In this recipe, I also believe that the VMS Author omitted also the comment at the end 五石脂各随五色补五脏 = "The five clays, each according to the five colors, tonify the five solid organs".  This comment too only makes sense in the theory of TCM, where the "five solid organs" are defined as the liver, heart, spleen, lungs, and kidneys; and each is associated with one of those five colors -- so that a remedy of a certain color would mostly act on the organ with the same assigned color. 

With the "nature" field omitted, in the SPS parag the title should be followed by the translation of the keyword 主 = "mainly for" (note the difference between 主 and 生!).  As seen in the "Red rooster" recipe and many others the "proper" translation of 主 seems to be daiin (daiin). However, the translation can often vary: in the "Rooster" case, four of the eight 主 match a "daiin", but the other four have "kaiin", "dain", "laiin", and "kaiin" in the corresponding positions.   I have discussed elsewhere why the Scribe could have misread a sloppy handwritten d in the draft as k or l.  On the other hand, not every "daiin" is a translation of a 主.

Anyway, on the f104v.22 parag there is a "daiin" on line 23 (part of the token "qodaiin"), which is rather too far to match the 主 of the SBJ entry.  But there is a "saiin" (in "lsaiin") at about the correct spot, and a "taiin" (in "ytaiin") just a bit further ahead. 

If we accept that "lsaiin" as the translation of the 主, then the title part of f104v.22 would be
  • ytchedy.qokchedy.qotchy.qokchedy.qokchd
If we take the "ytain" instead, the title would be
  • ytchedy.qokchedy.qotchy.qokchedy.qokchd.lsaiin.?or.sheos.
The "?" in "?or" is a weirdo glyph that could be transcribed as "qch" with the "q" ligated to the middle of the "c".  (I would guess that the token was actually "ychor", but it does not matter for this post.)

The SPS parag f104v.22 was identified as a match to the "Five clays" SBJ entry only by its total length and the relative position of my current cribs for  主, 气 (qi , sort of "vital energy"; twice in the recipe), and 久服 ("prolonged use").  There were no other parags that came close to it by those criteria.  The other parts of the Chinese and EVA texts, including the entry "titles", were not considered (except for their character/letter counts). While f104v.22 may still be a false match, it is notable that the uncommonly long presumed Voynichese title has five similar tokens, matching the five similar words of the SPS recipe -- four of which are prefixed with "qo".  

Hence my guess that "qo" means "and", and was inserted by the Author because he found the Chinese way of listing things -- with no "and" word -- too confusing.   Besides the title of that recipe, he presumably also inserted "qo"s in the lists of diseases and benefits. 

Apart from the "qo"s and the initial "y", the five tokens in the title part of f104v.22 would be "tchedy", "kchedy", "tchy", "kchedy", and "kchd".  I don't know how they would be parsed into colored clays.  iIt is problematic that "kchedy" occurs twice (where "red clay" and "white clay" should be).  But that could be a Scribal error too.

(By the way, the bifolio f104+f115 is quite distinct from all the others in a couple of ways, which could have a bearing on this analysis.  But that discussion belongs in another thread.) 

All the best, --stolfi
[+] 1 user says Thank You to Jorge_Stolfi for this post
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Messages In This Thread
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 09-06-2025, 09:16 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 09-06-2025, 10:06 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 09-06-2025, 10:53 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Rafal - 10-06-2025, 01:57 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 10-06-2025, 11:37 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 02:07 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 11-06-2025, 01:30 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 03:08 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 11-06-2025, 08:40 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 11-06-2025, 09:17 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 06:22 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 06:39 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 11-06-2025, 08:49 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 11:44 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 11-06-2025, 11:17 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 12-06-2025, 08:34 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 13-06-2025, 07:01 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 13-06-2025, 09:20 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 08:59 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 14-06-2025, 11:36 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 02:35 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Pepper - 12-06-2025, 09:02 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 12-06-2025, 09:43 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 12-06-2025, 12:45 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 12-06-2025, 05:31 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Yavernoxia - 12-06-2025, 06:17 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 10:08 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 12-06-2025, 06:51 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by MarcoP - 12-06-2025, 07:30 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 13-06-2025, 02:35 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 13-06-2025, 03:28 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Letieum - 13-06-2025, 03:52 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 13-06-2025, 04:29 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 13-06-2025, 07:41 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 13-06-2025, 09:29 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 13-06-2025, 09:37 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 13-06-2025, 09:52 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 13-06-2025, 10:10 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 12-06-2025, 08:58 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 12-06-2025, 09:11 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by kckluge - 12-06-2025, 09:43 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 12-06-2025, 09:51 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Pepper - 12-06-2025, 10:04 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by kckluge - 12-06-2025, 01:15 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 12-06-2025, 10:19 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Pepper - 12-06-2025, 10:23 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by MarcoP - 12-06-2025, 11:03 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 12-06-2025, 01:52 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Koen G - 12-06-2025, 01:21 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by MarcoP - 12-06-2025, 03:51 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 13-06-2025, 01:05 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by RadioFM - 13-06-2025, 04:13 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 13-06-2025, 08:34 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 14-06-2025, 09:21 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 04:46 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 14-06-2025, 11:59 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 14-06-2025, 12:45 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 03:36 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 14-06-2025, 03:56 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 04:38 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 14-06-2025, 02:30 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 14-06-2025, 02:44 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 14-06-2025, 04:25 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 14-06-2025, 09:36 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 03:44 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 03:03 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 06:28 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 11:32 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 07:55 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 14-06-2025, 06:02 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 15-06-2025, 09:56 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 15-06-2025, 12:24 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 15-06-2025, 09:10 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 15-06-2025, 12:01 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by tavie - 15-06-2025, 01:18 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 05:06 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 16-06-2025, 08:25 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 16-06-2025, 08:51 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 16-06-2025, 09:11 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 16-06-2025, 09:24 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 11:18 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 16-06-2025, 11:54 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 01:46 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 08:43 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by MarcoP - 17-06-2025, 04:57 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 09:47 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Mauro - 16-06-2025, 09:31 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 05:25 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 16-06-2025, 07:35 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 11:17 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 08:35 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Pepper - 17-06-2025, 02:27 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 09:02 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Pepper - 18-06-2025, 08:14 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 06:44 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 09:20 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Mauro - 16-06-2025, 08:31 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 16-06-2025, 01:08 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 16-06-2025, 07:08 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 09:31 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by bi3mw - 16-06-2025, 10:48 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 16-06-2025, 11:47 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by tavie - 16-06-2025, 11:55 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by bi3mw - 17-06-2025, 07:25 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by dashstofsk - 17-06-2025, 08:09 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Aga Tentakulus - 17-06-2025, 11:22 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 06:53 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 03:00 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 08:45 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 17-06-2025, 07:35 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 09:27 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 17-06-2025, 10:08 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 17-06-2025, 09:37 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 17-06-2025, 09:38 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by nablator - 17-06-2025, 09:51 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 09:52 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 04:15 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 18-06-2025, 04:47 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 06:15 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 09:18 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by tavie - 18-06-2025, 07:59 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 18-06-2025, 09:11 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by tavie - 18-06-2025, 10:13 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by oshfdk - 18-06-2025, 10:43 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 19-06-2025, 12:01 AM
RE: It is not Chinese - by tavie - 18-06-2025, 10:58 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by ReneZ - 18-06-2025, 11:45 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by countingtls - 25-06-2025, 07:51 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by countingtls - 25-06-2025, 10:06 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by countingtls - 25-06-2025, 10:50 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by countingtls - 25-06-2025, 11:47 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by Jorge_Stolfi - 15-11-2025, 06:44 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by rikforto - 15-11-2025, 07:33 PM
RE: It is not Chinese - by countingtls - 26-06-2025, 01:05 AM
Bad news - by Jorge_Stolfi - 25-02-2026, 08:31 PM
RE: the q glyph - by Jorge_Stolfi - 15-04-2026, 05:49 AM
About "qo" meaning "and" - by Jorge_Stolfi - 01-09-2026, 11:10 PM
Dictation experiment, anyone? - by Jorge_Stolfi - 03-09-2026, 04:36 PM
RE: Dictation experiment, anyone? - by eggyk - 03-09-2026, 05:07 PM
RE: Dictation experiment, anyone? - by eggyk - 03-09-2026, 06:46 PM
RE: Dictation experiment, anyone? - by Yavernoxia - 06-09-2026, 10:16 PM
RE: Dictation experiment, anyone? - by eggyk - 07-09-2026, 10:20 AM
RE: Dictation experiment, anyone? - by Yavernoxia - 07-09-2026, 01:12 PM
Reply to @JoJo_Jost - by Jorge_Stolfi - 22-09-2026, 09:58 AM

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