[Blog Post] Peter Bakker on the VMS
#50
(10-08-2020, 06:06 PM)MichelleL11 wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ...
There is definite precedence for labels in figures beings strung out syllables that add up to a word when taken as a whole.
...


For a long time I sensed resistance to the idea that the VMS might be broken up into components that are not specifically word-related. My feelings about it...

-JKP- 29-08-2019, 09:37 PM wrote:Manuscripts are full of syllables.

Many charts and especially wheel diagrams are full of syllables (especially in the semi-compotus manuscripts). Lullian diagrams often have syllables. Maps often have syllables broken across topology. Greek manuscripts and basically all Greek art are full of syllables. Most eastern scripts are based on syllables, not on individual letters. I have lots of samples of syllables from western manuscripts.

I've been thinking syllables for a very long time. I was quite surprised when I brought it up in the early days of the forum (or maybe it was on someone's blog), that there was active resistance to the idea. To me syllables are high on the list, not just a vague possibility.


I've already posted examples of syllables broken across imagery, but here are some more...

It occurs frequently in Greek icons

   

but it is also fairly common in Latin manuscripts and charts.

Breaking syllables across imagery happens frequently in maps and fairly regularly in other kinds of images. But sometimes it is done even if there are no drawing components in the way as in this example of a place-name on a 14th-century map:

   

In this blog, halfway down, is another example of syllables broken across the streams of three rivers:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


I have also seen numerous passages where the syllables are marked with initials or with numbers. Here is an example from an 11th-century  manuscript where the syllables are marked with double and single letters. Notice that one is a gamma symbol rather than a Latin letter. I see this quite often in early medieval manuscripts, where Greek letters are used, or Greek letters are mixed with Latin letters:

   

Liber Floridus has examples of labels broken into syllables.

Syllables were used in indexing systems:


You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Even though I see syllabification quite frequently, I haven't noticed any specific system for marking syllables. It looks like each scribe created his own or used one that was very local. It's similar as the situation for musical notes... there are dozens (maybe hundreds) of different notation systems in the medieval period. They weren't standardized until the Renaissance and early modern period (I'm guessing the invention of the printing press and mass-market books had a strong influence).


Marking syllables with various symbols was common, but I don't know exactly when they started splitting the syllables apart with a space in between, but I'm pretty sure I have examples going back to at least the 10th century and possibly earlier. Not only on maps, but in documents that include songs and notes.


The concept of syllables was certainly in medieval awareness. I am not sure why it took so long for the concept to be applied to ciphers (I'm always keeping my eyes open for clues), but it may have happened sometime in the 14th or 15th century. As can be seen from examples, they ran words together, broke words across lines, and broke words across pieces of imagery much earlier than that.
[+] 2 users say Thank You to -JKP- for this post
Reply


Messages In This Thread
Peter Bakker on the VMS - by bi3mw - 03-08-2020, 02:30 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Ruby Novacna - 03-08-2020, 03:09 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by bi3mw - 03-08-2020, 03:45 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Koen G - 03-08-2020, 04:02 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 03-08-2020, 06:05 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 03-08-2020, 06:34 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 09:40 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by bi3mw - 03-08-2020, 06:53 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MichelleL11 - 03-08-2020, 07:45 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Anton - 03-08-2020, 08:42 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 10:05 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 04-08-2020, 06:07 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 09:44 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 09:52 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nablator - 06-08-2020, 10:53 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 10:09 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 03-08-2020, 10:19 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by aStobbart - 03-08-2020, 11:10 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MichelleL11 - 04-08-2020, 12:18 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 04-08-2020, 12:36 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by DONJCH - 04-08-2020, 03:54 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 04-08-2020, 06:55 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 04-08-2020, 07:50 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Pepper - 04-08-2020, 05:44 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Anton - 04-08-2020, 12:59 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by RenegadeHealer - 04-08-2020, 01:33 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by DONJCH - 04-08-2020, 01:39 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Anton - 07-08-2020, 09:27 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 04-08-2020, 06:23 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 04-08-2020, 07:30 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 04-08-2020, 07:48 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by R. Sale - 04-08-2020, 08:22 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 05-08-2020, 08:15 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 11-08-2020, 11:39 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 05-08-2020, 03:58 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 05-08-2020, 04:14 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 05-08-2020, 08:52 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 10-08-2020, 02:21 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 05-08-2020, 10:34 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nablator - 05-08-2020, 11:04 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 05-08-2020, 11:19 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nablator - 06-08-2020, 09:42 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Helmut Winkler - 06-08-2020, 10:24 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 06-08-2020, 11:43 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Koen G - 10-08-2020, 03:52 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 10-08-2020, 05:18 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MichelleL11 - 10-08-2020, 06:06 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 10-08-2020, 07:34 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 11-08-2020, 12:48 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nablator - 10-08-2020, 06:16 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 10-08-2020, 08:57 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 11-08-2020, 08:22 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 11-08-2020, 10:19 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Stephen Carlson - 24-08-2020, 04:47 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 24-08-2020, 07:09 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Stephen Carlson - 25-08-2020, 01:05 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 11-08-2020, 10:50 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 11-08-2020, 10:59 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 11-08-2020, 09:15 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 19-08-2020, 01:15 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 19-08-2020, 02:37 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 20-08-2020, 09:49 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 19-08-2020, 05:30 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 21-08-2020, 05:07 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 23-08-2020, 12:48 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 09:00 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Koen G - 21-08-2020, 09:09 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 09:20 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 09:45 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 21-08-2020, 09:52 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 21-08-2020, 09:58 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 10:01 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 21-08-2020, 10:07 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by -JKP- - 21-08-2020, 10:26 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 11:03 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 21-08-2020, 11:12 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Helmut Winkler - 21-08-2020, 11:32 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by bi3mw - 21-08-2020, 12:26 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Helmut Winkler - 21-08-2020, 03:56 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 23-08-2020, 10:04 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 23-08-2020, 01:17 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by nickpelling - 24-08-2020, 02:01 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 24-08-2020, 06:34 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by davidjackson - 23-08-2020, 04:40 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Helmut Winkler - 23-08-2020, 05:12 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by davidjackson - 23-08-2020, 05:50 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by MarcoP - 23-08-2020, 06:06 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by davidjackson - 23-08-2020, 06:28 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 23-08-2020, 06:52 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by ReneZ - 24-08-2020, 07:21 AM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Torsten - 24-08-2020, 08:20 PM
RE: Peter Bakker on the VMS - by Aga Tentakulus - 24-08-2020, 07:24 PM

Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)