Posts: 374Threads: 54 Member details
Posts: 374
Threads: 54
Thanks Received: 261 in 126 posts
Thanks Given: 343
Joined: Nov 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Europe
08-10-2026, 09:27 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2026, 09:44 AM by JustAnotherTheory.)
Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false.
However it is possible that a forger in the 16th century made the VMS so that he can sell it to Rudolf II. The forgery hypothesis does not have to concern the 20th century only.
And as I said, plants grafting, as it is called, started in the 16th century as well. Botanists created "Frankenstein plants", by grafting roots and leaves from one plant, onto the stem of another plant. And this practice was also done in the context of cabinets of curiosity, like the one Rudolf II famously posessed. Does this sound familiar?
Posts: 374Threads: 54 Member details
Posts: 374
Threads: 54
Thanks Received: 261 in 126 posts
Thanks Given: 343
Joined: Nov 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Europe
Here is the part about plant grafting that I was talking about:
Posts: 29Threads: 4 Member details
Posts: 29
Threads: 4
Thanks Received: 28 in 16 posts
Thanks Given: 18
Joined: Sep 2026
Reputation:
0
08-10-2026, 10:50 AM
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2026, 03:34 PM by gerrydelasel.
Edit Reason: Added a nice example
)
(08-10-2026, 09:27 AM)JustAnotherTheory wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false. Maybe not in ivory, but highly ornate vessels in other materials did. Communion cups, reliquaries, pyx, censers, apothecary jars, even kachelofens. Ciboriums are particularly ornate.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Posts: 1,112Threads: 16 Member details
Posts: 1,112
Threads: 16
Thanks Received: 335 in 239 posts
Thanks Given: 266
Joined: Oct 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Deutschland
Country:
08-10-2026, 03:53 PM
(This post was last modified: 08-10-2026, 03:54 PM by JoJo_Jost.)
(08-10-2026, 09:27 AM)JustAnotherTheory wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you @Jojo. I will add that ivory turning did not exist before the 16th century. So the claim that there were "similar objects" in the 15th century is simply false.
Just a quick note: The quote does not refer to ivory, but rather to the fact that the vessels drew on 15th-century forms, which were, however, common in the “art of goldsmithing.”  Only the very daring designs can be classified as Baroque, and these are NOT found in the VMS either.
The following 1 user says Thank You to JoJo_Jost for this post:1 user says Thank You to JoJo_Jost for this post
• Koen G
Posts: 374Threads: 54 Member details
Posts: 374
Threads: 54
Thanks Received: 261 in 126 posts
Thanks Given: 343
Joined: Nov 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Europe
09-10-2026, 07:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2026, 07:29 AM by JustAnotherTheory.)
Let me point out to both of you, that while the simpler forms of those reliquaries, or "ornate vessels" in the example above might indeed look like one or two Voynich containers, the more ornate ones, with the many embedded ornaments and the weird tripod (or n-pod) feet do not have any ressemblance to 1400s containers, as much as the ivory vases do.
The ivories room in Palazzo Pitti literally looks like an assortment of Voynich containers. Like someone made life-like versions of those illustrations. They all have those features and variations of the Voynich vessels, including the variations in base, body and cupole-like top.
To me, these ivories are the best match for the VMS vessels, so far.
Posts: 1,112Threads: 16 Member details
Posts: 1,112
Threads: 16
Thanks Received: 335 in 239 posts
Thanks Given: 266
Joined: Oct 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Deutschland
Country:
I don't understand that—the quote from the description explicitly states that the feet and other elements were created based on models from the “previous century,” that is, the 15th century. Only these very strange and bizarre shapes can be attributed to the Baroque period.
Posts: 29Threads: 4 Member details
Posts: 29
Threads: 4
Thanks Received: 28 in 16 posts
Thanks Given: 18
Joined: Sep 2026
Reputation:
0
What is this container? Is it a single object or just three nesting boxes stacked on top of one another?
Posts: 559Threads: 18 Member details
Posts: 559
Threads: 18
Thanks Received: 617 in 290 posts
Thanks Given: 257
Joined: Jan 2025
Reputation:
1
Location: Netherlands
(09-10-2026, 08:59 AM)JoJo_Jost wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't understand that—the quote from the description explicitly states that the feet and other elements were created based on models from the “previous century,” that is, the 15th century. Only these very strange and bizarre shapes can be attributed to the Baroque period.
The date at that link states 1626, which makes "previous century" the 16th century, or 1500s, right?
Posts: 10,542Threads: 432 Member details
Posts: 10,542
Threads: 432
Thanks Received: 4,938 in 2,813 posts
Thanks Given: 4878
Joined: Mar 2016
Reputation:
11
Country:
(09-10-2026, 10:26 AM)gerrydelasel wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is this container? Is it a single object or just three nesting boxes stacked on top of one another?
I also wondered. Since some of them are stacked off-center and all appear lidded, I suspect they are containers that can fit inside one another like nesting dolls, but have been stacked for display purposes. Just a guess though. Maybe they are displayed for their craftmanship rather than a specific function, though that's hard to tell from the picture.
The following 1 user says Thank You to Koen G for this post:1 user says Thank You to Koen G for this post
• Mauro
Posts: 374Threads: 54 Member details
Posts: 374
Threads: 54
Thanks Received: 261 in 126 posts
Thanks Given: 343
Joined: Nov 2025
Reputation:
0
Location: Europe
09-10-2026, 01:35 PM
(This post was last modified: 09-10-2026, 01:37 PM by JustAnotherTheory.)
Here is a 17th century ivory vase, vs f89r1 or the VMS:
Source:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
|