[split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

[Koen G]

I split this off of the other thread. Please continue the Golden Fleece discussion here, about both critters that possibly resemble it.

What I wonder, with all respect for Burgundy, is which examples they based their Golden Fleece on. Right now there is a gap in my knowledge of over 1500 years between examples like the one below and the sign of the knightly order in 1430.

[R. Sale]

Koen,

When you ask about 'examples', what do you mean? Do you refer to visual examples or literary examples or something else? Actual classical examples, as you have posted, seem rather improbable, especially compared to the traditional familiarity with the myth itself. Initially it derived from classical mythology and the story of Jason and the Argonauts, but over several years, as it was employed in Burgundy, it morphed into Gideon and the Golden Fleece. It's also a switch from Classical to Christian.

This would seem to be a fairly substantial change. One requiring a sufficient degree of mythological flexibility. Compared to that level of flexibility, pretty much anyone who has seen a sheep can make an attempt at drawing a fleece, and not need to see a Greek vase first. Do you need a Greek vase to draw a VMs nymph?

[Koen G]

With a medieval image, whether it be in a manuscript, a painting or a golden chain, the first assumption should always be that it is inspired by some other visual example. 

Now admittedly, the Burgundians employed some of the most innovative artists of their time. Someone like Van Eyck created archetypes that were copied in many later works. So it is possible that the visual representation of the fleece as a complete animal suspended by the belly was invented based only on text.

However, since the Burgundian chain was only introduced in 1430, its appearance in our manuscript is starting to be at odds with the fashion of the Zodiac which is outdated by the 1430's. Either way, it would be of interest to know if there were any available examples which may have inspired the design of the chain.

[R. Sale]

And the two VMs candidates.

Sounds like an election. The need to make a choice. But it's not like that. Two representations make a pair. And pairing is an interesting and significant element in the first part of the VMs Zodiac sequence.

Consider a text filled with idiosyncratic elements, none of which connect to any other. None of which can confirm any of the others. The VMs avoids this through the use of pairings. If begins with VMs Pisces.

This discussion now confirms these two potential references to the Duchy of Burgundy through known historical traditions. The first connecting the Duke of Burgundy, (Philip the Good, as originator of the knightly Order of the Golden Fleece), to the myth of Melusine and the traditional mythology of the ancestral origins of the Valois family lines, which were his own.

The second example is confirmed by a book from the library of the same duke of Burgundy. The Golden Fleece as the Agnus Dei, the Agnus Dei as the Golden Fleece, they confirm each each other. What better play on ambiguity? Ambiguity does not deny or confirm. It leaves the possibility open. However, when a possibility can be tied to historical tradition and it occurs in Deuteronomic pairings, it's less likely to be an accidental reference - something unknown to the author. The modern reader is a different story.

Having a pairing is so much different than having a bunch of singular, unrelated items. Whatever other interpretations might be made regarding these two examples, it can be said both of them can be connected to Burgundy. Not connected visually as much as ideologically. And that these ideas, as they are, exist because they were presented by VMs creator, ambiguator and obfuscator.

[-JKP-]

If these loops of wool were drawn by a less-than-expert drafstman, they might look like scales and the rounded part of the bumps would face toward the head:

   

[R. Sale]

Interesting - whorls of wool that 'almost' look like scales. It shows the breadth of variation displayed across a spectrum of different artists.

Is there provenance associated with this carving?

[-JKP-]

Interesting - whorls of wool that 'almost' look like scales. It shows the breadth of variation displayed across a spectrum of different artists.

Is there provenance associated with this carving?

Musei civici di Palazzo Farnese, Piacenza, 12th century

When I see animals with this somewhat scaled pattern, they are usually sculptures rather than in drawings. I do occasionally see it in drawings, however, usually sheep and goats.

[Aga Tentakulus]

           

Symbolism: Jesus, victory over evil

From history: Greek myth.
Around 600 Eastern Church symbol for Jesus Christ. Not recognised in the western church.
1050-1350 Symbol of the German Templars.
Philip III Duke of Burgundy could not use the normal Agnus Dei because the Order of German Knights was still in existence ("Johanniter "Order of St John). He had to come up with something.
The painting of Philip III with the hanging lamb was not painted before 1450. It took some years before it was accepted after the foundation.
Philip III wanted to revive the old order of knights.

Whether lying or standing, old or new, it was never drawn without a head.

Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

[-JKP-]

More Agnus Dei pics:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Plus, there is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on Agnus Dei with more pics.

Plus, I have about 60 more Agnus Dei pics in my files.

[R. Sale]

Certainly there are a host of Agnus Dei images. That is why the image needs to fit the specified structural criteria: LAMB / COSMIC BOUNDARY / BLOOD (Droplets).  The boundary is between the lamb and the blood.  The boundary has a cloud based derivation.

That is the structure of BNF Fr. 13096. That is the apparent structure of VMs f80v. That is the structure of.......?