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[split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

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  • [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures
• [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM candidates

  R. Sale > 03-10-2020, 08:25 PM

  Koen.
  
  I have read, and you as well, perhaps, that there was a proliferation of the fleece motif in the period after the establishment of the the order. However as to any sort of immediate source for the myth of the design of the physical representation, there doesn't seem to be any info (or at least I haven't seen it).
  
  Independent origination is possible in the depiction of common objects. And, just in browsing pictures of subsequent replicas, there is a lack of precision. There are variations, Even those reversed head for tail. Are you expecting a greater degree of image standardization to exist prior to the establishment of the order, than what we can see has come afterwards?  For me, it's like the patterns in the cloud-bands, each artist is unique. Similarities are hard to come by, unless examples come from a particular source.
  
  One significant and unfortunate thing to be noted about the KBR, the Duke of Berry's Library, etc, is the number of lost manuscripts, well over half. Who knows what is missing? A recent (1400-1430), illustrated version of Jason and the Argonauts, or an imported copy of Shirakatsi's tables and diagrams?

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  Koen G > 03-10-2020, 08:44 PM

  I changed the title of this thread to a less election-like "creatures". 
  
  

  (03-10-2020, 07:22 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.That is why the image needs to fit the specified structural criteria: LAMB / COSMIC BOUNDARY / BLOOD (Droplets)

  
  In that case I would argue that Aries is a better contender. See the Aries image in the Tubinger Hausbuch as pointed out by Darren Worley:
  
  
  
  Granted, there is no blood, but I would say that the lines under the cloud band in the VM are more like rain coming from the cloud. On the very same folio, the cloudband-with-lines is used also with the two nymphs on top, suggesting that the meaning is not specific to the ram.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM candidates

  Linda > 03-10-2020, 09:02 PM

  (03-10-2020, 07:22 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Certainly there are a host of Agnus Dei images. That is why the image needs to fit the specified structural criteria: LAMB / COSMIC BOUNDARY / BLOOD (Droplets).  The boundary is between the lamb and the blood.  The boundary has a cloud based derivation.
  
  That is the structure of BNF Fr. 13096. That is the apparent structure of VMs f80v. That is the structure of.......?

  
  it is not blood though. Only the moon became as blood, no droplets mentioned. What was dropping were the stars from the heavens. A comparison of other sixth seal diagrams and the text itself shows it to be fiery or sooty starstuff in these droplets. Or are you saying they were going by a newer tradition of people misunderstanding the symbology, because i could see that happening, but i don't think it is what you mean.
  
  I am still hoping Aga will answer about the green part being important because i think that is the case too, maybe for different reasons though. 
  
  But your case relies on structure and traditions so i think it weakens your stance to hold to the droplets being blood, since that is not the tradition behind that image. I can think of blood in Agnus dei depictions like Mystic Lamb, but this is not that, this is the lamb of the sixth seal, still an analogy for Christ/God, but at endtimes. If you change it to droplets of fire, you will be all good. I don't think the vms counterpart looks like fire any more than it looks blood, but it could rain fire if a meteor exploded overhead, so if the text said the stars fell from the heavens, rain would be a perfectly acceptable illustration. Wiki says one interpretation is 'massive meteor showers (“the stars… fell”). '  
  
  

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  Linda > 03-10-2020, 09:27 PM

  A more widespread interpretation relates the myth of the fleece to a method of washing gold from streams, which was well attested (but only from c. 5th century BC) in the region of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to the east of the Black Sea. Sheep fleeces, sometimes stretched over a wooden frame, would be submerged in the stream, and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. flecks borne down from upstream You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. deposits would collect in them. The fleeces would be hung in trees to dry before the gold was shaken or combed out. Alternatively, the fleeces would be used on washing tables in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of gold or on washing tables at deep You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Judging by the very early gold objects from a range of cultures, washing for gold is a very old human activity.[/font]
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. describes the way in which gold could be washed:[/font]
  "It is said that in their country gold is carried down by the mountain torrents, and that the barbarians obtain it by means of perforated troughs and fleecy skins, and that this is the origin of the myth of the golden fleece—unless they call them You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., by the same name as the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., from the gold mines in both countries."
  
  
  This is one of the reasons i equate fleece with mountains.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  R. Sale > 03-10-2020, 09:50 PM

  Is there any hint at all in the Tubinger image that there might be blood involved?
  
  This is why structure is important. More important than visual appearance. Illustrations don't need to look alike in order to represent the same thing. This diversity, this potential for disguise is being exploited extensively in the VMs. In order to better understand the content and the intent, there needs to be an adequate familiarity with the traditions, beliefs, and myths that are relevant to the investigation.
  
  One cannot consider the identification of Melusine, if one does not know the myth of Melusine.
  One cannot consider the significance of the Melusine myth, if one does not know the ancestral lore of the Valois dukes.
  
  The artist, however, has not chosen to be clear and plainly obvious. The artist has chosen the diversity of expression to create ambiguity - ambiguity that cannot fully stand on its own, but also cannot be wholly denied. 
  
  Clearly, however, this is not good enough. Everything in the VMs has plenty of ambiguity. The requirement then is to determine where these ambiguous possibilities share common factors. If they don't, they don't. But, when they do, they produce a more viable interpretation, one that reinforces all of the contributing elements, not one that is more ambiguous.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  R. Sale > 03-10-2020, 10:40 PM

  Linda,
  
  Well, you're right. It is an apocalypse after all. So it may not be droplets of blood, unless the blood of the Lamb is too hot to handle.
  
  Still the structure remains the same. Clearly 'something' has been emitted. The VMs counterpart is not identifiable. It's just the fact that something is there. The structure has the same three parts in the same order. It's still a matter of seeing the same structure, the same 'thing', despite intentional alterations in appearance. The same thing was done in the VMs cosmos.
  
  Seeing the whole image as a fleece being washed with the gold falling out, brings the story back to the beginning. Is that a golden fleece or *the* Golden Fleece of Burgundy? And does the structure mimic that of the Agnus Dei image in the Burgundian library? The answer then relies, perhaps, on the presence and the nature of a cosmic boundary.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  Linda > 03-10-2020, 10:54 PM

  I think it ambiguous on purpose so as no onlooker can perceive anything concrete in what is within, without the maker's sayso to confirm. I think it is just hints for recreation at another time, to keep it safe from those who might judge it blasphemous, or who might otherwise simply steal the information, if they knew what it was and could read it.
  
  That is also why i could see the specific case where the fire or blood or whatever is around the cloudband in the specific version that was found in that particular library could be seen as you see it, just because it is different from the rest, and so the ambiguousity includes your interpretation nonetheless. But it is still not enough to prove anything.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  Aga Tentakulus > 03-10-2020, 10:56 PM

  (03-10-2020, 07:22 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The boundary is between the lamb and the blood.

  Remember the evening meal, wine and bread.
  This is not a party. Wine = Blood Jesus.
  It is no coincidence when the lamb bleeds. The lamb embodies Jesus.
  Hence Greek symbolism where Koen posted. And the lamb defeats the serpent. Like in the picture carved in stone.
  To understand all this you have to remember what happened at the Council of Rome around 400. Many customs of cultures had to be incorporated into religion.
  
  Translated with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (free version)

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  R. Sale > 04-10-2020, 02:59 AM

  Appearance is ambiguous, looks are deceptive. Visual similarity can be subjective.
  
  Structure is fixed and definitive. The assessment is objective. In a comparison, structure either matches or it does not.

• RE: [split] The Golden Fleece and the two VM creatures

  -JKP- > 04-10-2020, 03:40 AM

  This is 19th century, but I am including it because by the 18th and 19th centuries the "lamb in repose" Agnus Dei had become fairly common:
  
  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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