f17r

[davidjackson]

Scribes in the 1400s were constantly tossing in Latin terms mixed with their own language. Even in the 1700s, when books were printed in mass quantity for a broader audience, Latin and Greek phrases were intermixed with the language in which the book was written (French, English, German, Italian, etc.) without a footnote to translate it. The fact that there were no footnotes indicates that they assumed the reader could read the Latin and Greek phrases without explanation.

Yes, but that's a different case. It was assumed a literate reader could understand the classical languages. I'm talking about mixing vernaculars for a personal case.

About the "luco", my Spanish is not perfect, but this root can also be used in a verb, meaning something like "appear, look like", probably etymologically related to "lux". Any possibilities there?

Luco is an obsolete word meaning "grove" (or copse). I think you're confusing it with lucir , to shine (and it has all the connotations the English verb does as well), from the Latin lucere (according to Rae). I can't think of any others.

Perhaps, "mallior" could be a valid word form of "malo"?

Doubt it. It is more likely to be an old spelling of mayor, "greatest" or "oldest", etc etc- ll and y were often confused. Or even mejor, "better", although then i would expect mehor.

[MarcoP]

Perhaps, "mallior" could be a valid word form of "malo"?

Doubt it. It is more likely to be an old spelling of mayor, "greatest" or "oldest", etc etc- ll and y were often confused. Or even mejor, "better", although then i would expect mehor.

I agree.
For "malo" as a form of the verb malle, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
The adjective "malus" (bad) is irregular and its comparative is "peior" (worst), not the "expected" "malior"

This suggests another possibility: could the second letter be an "u" corrected into an "o": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Latin: softer)?
Or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (old French from Latin "mulier" -woman-).

[Anton]

Thanks Marco, very useful resource is that Verbix!

could the second letter be an "u" corrected into an "o": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Latin: softer)?

I doubt it. It looks like it was originally the same "a" as in "all?r", but then it was additionally delineated (perhaps by a later reader) - not very carefully though - but still to stand as "a".

From a couple of months ago: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Thx for the link. As to the "fading word", my best guess for the first letter is "v", because the alternative "p" requires a vertical below the baseline which I failed to trace. The second one I think to be an "u". The third and the fourth are both "l". Thus we have something beginning with "vull", which, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. suggests, in German might stand for "Voll" (i.e. ""full), or, maybe "vul" (rotten, stinky, compare with English "foul").

Is it possible that there is a valid German reading of the tentative "lucz" with a ligature? Were ligatures used in German-tongue documents, and for what purpose?

[Anton]

I see that what we interpret as "cz" may well stand for the embellished form of "z". E.g. in this manuscript: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

it is often found - interestingly, along with the "plain" form of "z" which does not look like "cz".

The horizontal line is enigmatic though. In German manuscripts, those are used with vowels as diacritics.

Supposing "luz", in MHD it is a word form of "lotze" (~ "redneck"), a word form of "antlitz" (face, look), or also means "ambush".

[Davidsch]

The horizontal line is enigmatic though. In German manuscripts, those are used with vowels as diacritics.

You can see the use of such a diacritic abbrev. mark (the horizontal line) to show the reader
 it concerns an abbrev. where (other and) many necc. letters have been lftt

(leftt=left out)

[-JKP-]

...
Thx for the link. As to the "fading word", my best guess for the first letter is "v", because the alternative "p" requires a vertical below the baseline which I failed to trace. The second one I think to be an "u". The third and the fourth are both "l". Thus we have something beginning with "vull", which, as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. suggests, in German might stand for "Voll" (i.e. ""full), or, maybe "vul" (rotten, stinky, compare with English "foul").

Is it possible that there is a valid German reading of the tentative "lucz" with a ligature? Were ligatures used in German-tongue documents, and for what purpose?

German documents were written with almost as many scribal abbreviations as Latin. Not quite as many, but most were adopted by one scribe or another (Spanish and French adopted them also).

The ones that were particularly prevalent in German documents were the Latin abbreviations for con-/cum- -rum/-orem -um/-us/-os re/er/ir con, per and pro. These, by the way, happen to match the characters in the VMS that were used for those abbreviations, as if the person who created the text wanted it to superficially look like they were Latin abbreviations (or just borrowed the most common shapes for his own purposes).

[Anton]

The horizontal line is enigmatic though. In German manuscripts, those are used with vowels as diacritics.

You can see the use of such a diacritic abbrev. mark (the horizontal line) to show the reader
 it concerns an abbrev. where (other and) many necc. letters have been lftt

(leftt=left out)

Yes, that's already been discussed above. The question is: was that common in German language manuscripts? Are there any characteristic examples?

---

German documents were written with almost as many scribal abbreviations as Latin. Not quite as many, but most were adopted by one scribe or another.

The ones that were particularly prevalent in German documents were the Latin abbreviations for con-/cum- -rum/-orem -um/-us/-os re/er/ir con, per and pro. These, by the way, happen to match the characters in the VMS that were used for those abbreviations, as if the person who created the text wanted it to superficially look like they were Latin abbreviations.

What I mean are not "German documents", but documents in German language. Was there a similar abbreviation practice in place for the German language as it was there for Latin?

[Koen G]

Also, has anyone studied You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. near the "17" top right? It looks like it was once a blue flower, but different than the ones of the plant. Could it have been a part of the marginalia text?

[-JKP-]

The horizontal line is enigmatic though. In German manuscripts, those are used with vowels as diacritics.

You can see the use of such a diacritic abbrev. mark (the horizontal line) to show the reader
 it concerns an abbrev. where (other and) many necc. letters have been lftt

(leftt=left out)

Yes, that's already been discussed above. The question is: was that common in German language manuscripts? Are there any characteristic examples?

---

German documents were written with almost as many scribal abbreviations as Latin. Not quite as many, but most were adopted by one scribe or another.

The ones that were particularly prevalent in German documents were the Latin abbreviations for con-/cum- -rum/-orem -um/-us/-os re/er/ir con, per and pro. These, by the way, happen to match the characters in the VMS that were used for those abbreviations, as if the person who created the text wanted it to superficially look like they were Latin abbreviations.

What I mean are not "German documents", but documents in German language. Was there a similar abbreviation practice in place for the German language as it was there for Latin?

That's what I meant. I should have said, "Documents in German, French, Spanish, English, and Italian adopted Latin scribal abbreviations." They are full of them. You have to read them basically the same way.

Sometimes they used the sigla and other conventions for exactly the same meaning, sometimes, slight modification to adapt it to common letter combinations in that language (for example, Latin -us abbreviation might be used for -os in a language with different endings). In Spanish the c with a tail or the co ligature (which looks like a "w") is used for con. In Latin it's used for con and sometimes a few other things. All of them use Latin Per- abbreviation in exactly the same way (with the line across the p descender to indicate "er"). Same with Pro- and 4o (quarto).

Some were still writing whole books in Latin two centuries later, so there must still have been enough Latin readers out there to create a market for the books. A. Kircher's books from the mid-17th century, which found a wide audience, were written in Latin. Literate people  in the middle ages and Renaissance knew Latin and Latin scribal abbreviations and used those conventions when writing in their own languages. Some of the early typefaces made for printing books in the German language included Latin abbreviations.

[Anton]

It occured to me that the word that is beginning with "h" may read "heit", - with "t" as in "anchiton" or "portas" in f116v. With the poor visibility of the crossbar, "it" may misrepresent itself for an "u".

According to Woerterbuchnetz, "heit" is a valid word or wordform, with a variety of meanings.