The Voynich Ninja

Good find VViews. 

What JKP says about alchemical imagery is exactly what I thought too: it is so easy to recognize. Which is one of the many reasons why I personally believe the VM does not contain it.

The last image you posted seems relevant in understanding the pose though. It symbolizes marriage, a union, and goes back to actual wedding imagery since Roman times.

Koen Gh,
You asked for parallels to that pose. I found four to add to the many already on this thread, and explained what they are and how the four are connected. I have not expressed any general opinion about whether or not the Voynich contains alchemical imagery, because that is not the topic here.
I don't see why the last image of the four is more "relevant" to understand the pose, considering it is the latest one (17thC). To me, the earlier ones are far more interesting than the Ashmole one.

Vv- sorry, of course I meant the one before that, 15th century. Your second image doesn't work for me

No need to react defensively about alchemy, just an opinion I expressed by the by. Your images are really relevant, and it's interesting to see that the pose was still used to express a union by the 17th century.

About the full-blown "Alchemical" style in European imagery...

Adam McLean, whose erudition on the subject none could doubt, long ago looked carefully through the manuscript and gave it as his opinion that the imagery was not alchemical imagery of that sort.  To judge by his silence on the subject, and his general dismissal of the manuscript, one could say that Lynn Thorndike evidently held the same opinion.

The 'crossed hands' imagery ...  I think you will find that apart from the astronomical 'Twins' , imagery of this sort derived from one of four types.

In descending order of age they are (1) Asklepios, (Lat. Aesculapius) with his daughter Hygeia (2) signifier of abduction/rape (3) imagery of Roman betrothal  (4) physician taking a patient's pulse.

(2) is not common convention in the medieval Latin tradition.


The classical Roman 'betrothal' will normally show the man holding the marriage document - as in the example cited by Koen.

The interesting thing about the Voynich image is that while now serving as sign of the 'Gemini' month, the gesture is the old Aslepios-Hygeia type, while it is plain that the fifteenth-century copyist interprets  it as a 'betrothal' form.

The same habit would become common in Europe from the late fourteenth and early fifteenth centuries, though as a rule images of that type in Europe will include the third figure - as the woman's father or the officiant priest.

Diane - What in the image do you think point towards an Asculepius origin? I did notice he is often sitting, that would explain why the male has such short legs in the reinterpreted version

Koen,
Sorry, this might sound a bit sad, but the greater part of my collection  was lost in a fire in 2013, so  I can only refer you to what I've offered in blogposts and obvious sources such as wildwinds, which I'm sure you know.

At the top of 'You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.' I added one, rather late (2ndC AD) example, but there are earlier ones.



Postscript - re-reading that post, I see you have read it already.  So 'wildwinds' and general searches for Asklepios under the Greek, and various later Romanised forms.

It is clear the VM illustrator made an effort to draw the pair with crossed arms. This exact pose is relatively rare, though some examples have been found before.

If I'm not mistaken, this one is new, although unfortunately it is somewhat late (1482)
Andreas <Capellanus> / Hartlieb, Johannes: Das buoch Ouidy von der liebe zu erwerben. auch die liebe zeuerschmehen, Augsburg, 1482.01.23. [BSB-Ink A-486 - GW 1760]

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What's interesting about it is that it comes with a fairly legible text in German, perhaps explaining the precise nature of the scene? It shouldn't be too hard for one of our resident German speakers.

Also, it looks like a painted woodcut print. That would explain why it's mirrored. Either way I'd be surprised if this didn't descend from VM-era or earlier examples.

Mirrored version is included for better comparison with VM.

[attachment=2321]

Koen, it really doesn't get much closer than that, does it? Even though some good ones have been previously posted via careful detective work by some of the members, your most recent one is the closest I've seen.


And yes, you are right about the mirror image... sometimes woodcuts were created in reverse so the drawings came out the same as the exemplar, but often they were not—mirror images of earlier hand-drawn illustrations were common. In fact, one often sees them in Renaissance-era herbals.

I'll take a look at the German and be back in a few moments...

Back... I don't have time to do a translation, but it's basically a romanticized description of courting and concepts of courtly love (advice to the young and yet unmarried).

I notice that even though it's a mass-produced book, a woodcut, it retains many of the scribal conventions of handwritten texts (looks like it might have been copied almost directly from a hand-written text, since the abbreviations vary in a way that was not characteristic of later standardized typesetting). Also, it's dialect (at least in terms of spelling), with "a" substituted for "e" in some places, and "p" for "b" and a few others.

JKP: yes, it's very close. The clothing has been updated to late-15th century tastes though. If you look at similar scenes from ca. 1400-1430 you see more wide, dagged sleeves and so on. What this shows to me with near certainty is that an image very close to the VM Gemini must exist or have existed at some point. Maybe it's just a matter of time before we find it.

I think the VM version must be close to the original one. In some versions the guy retains the hat. In other the woman the dress.

I took a short lunch break and wrote up a quick and dirty transliteration. I've expanded the abbreviations, and converted some of the more confusing spellings to modern German.

The original was probably written by someone from NE Germany (even though this version is published in Augsburg). Some of the spellings are the same as Frisian, but it's hard to know for sure because a number of northerners settled in Augsburg and also in the Tyrol and brought their spellings with them.

I don't have time to double-check it or capitalize all the nouns, or to convert all of it to modern German (most of the Middle German is understandable as-is), but the native German speakers can clean it up, if they want to:

"Ob nun der Werber zu jung ware, so mag die Frau billich [billig, cheap] im also antwurte. Dem begeren erzeügt de in kindheit, du bist zu solich en sachen ungeschickt das du eins werden Weibes liebe begeren oder vordern solt, darum wirt dem jugend vermerckt das du begerst des du unwürdig bist, wann er muss mit vil tugenden geziert sein, und muss sunderlich hilff und genad haben der eins werden Weibes Minne (fine love, courtly love) und liebe erwerben wil.


Dem du aber vil guter dat durch Weibe dienst getan habest oder sunst so wolgeborn seiest das kan ich an dir nicht erkennen, so hab ich es auch nicht von andern von dir horen sagen, warumb begert dann dein unvernufft solicher hohen gab. Ub? ich nu bulsch aft treiben wolt, so wolt ich mit ausserwolen ein werden gezierten helt des tugent und lob weit erschollen war des an dir nicht ist, ee? du dann solichs mer begerst so fleiss dich tugent und ezucht das es weit und nahe von dir erschelle.

Der Antwort also wist ich nicht das du solich schimpflich von mir redest darumb dem du mich als schamrot versuchen wilt.

Ich sprach dein wolgem augen rein Wieblich sucht het an mir geziert wunsam freütbar freüd. Weiss du nicht als dann aller Welt kunt ist das wem guter Werck [Taten] zucht und manheit von aller welt geschicht, das kommt alles von de lieb und Minn und entspringt urspringlich auss den gruntlosen brunnen de weiblichen lieb und Minne, und so die fuss Minn also würcken wirt, so sincken und neigen sich die herzen, und wer nicht mit lieb begabt ist, de mag nicht guten taten kein lieb erwerben.

Hierumb begere ich eüer liebe dar durch ich geweist und gelait werde lob und tugent zu erwerben, dann so wil ich mich in deiner dienst und willen also uben und fleissen und vestigklich halten das de in ere und ander frauen lob gebreist wurd.

Ist dire nicht lieber ich verdiene dem Minn in deinem dienst. Nach allem deiner verheissen und gebietten, dann dem du si mir mitteilest umb vergangen denist davon du nicht weist wem si zu willen geschehen seien.

So hette dein Weibliche zucht auch mer lobes, wann du einen unge lerten zu eren und zuchten prachtest dann dem du einer gelerten aufninibst. Nun bin ich ein neüer ritter de Minne und der liebe noch unversucht, und alles mein gemut steet zu dienen, darumb begere ich dein in zum einer lehrerin und meisterin, wann deiner lehre und geboten wil ich geren mit allen dingen gevolgig und undeton sein. Ufi mich in solicher gehorsam erzeigen das dein lobe weist darumb woll  erclingen wirt und das in still verborgen tragen das manger sprechen wirt. Wol dem reinen weib durch die dise tugent geschehen wie und was lobes gewinnest du so du mich groben ungelerten also lehrest. Wann doch jugend durch anweisung sunderlich geczieret wirt.

Im antwort das Weib also."