The Voynich Ninja

(05-04-2024, 02:42 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-04-2024, 01:28 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(04-04-2024, 01:24 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view."I would go no lower than ca. 1510-1520 because no influence of the Italian Renaissance style is evident"

Possibly the confusion is that the word lower can only mean "nearer to present", so "lower" should be read as "later".

That makes sense, too, René.

I love the video from 2009! Any thought on making an update?

proto57
Voynich Manuscript Rosettes in 3D
Oct 15, 2009
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

When I look at people's estimates, I also have to ask myself questions.
Example:
When a new fashion emerges in Italy (Milan), it may take 10 or 20 years for it to be captured in pictures.
It might take 20 or 30 years for this fashion to reach the north, and another 10 or 20 years for it to be captured in pictures there too.
If one person is more familiar with Italy and the other with northern Europe, I would consider both estimates to be reasonable.
After all, it's not a car model where I know exactly whether it was built in '72, '86 or '94, and the drawings are anything but accurate. And the fashion change was certainly not every spring.

(05-04-2024, 02:56 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I love the video from 2009! Any thought on making an update?


proto57

Voynich Manuscript Rosettes in 3D

Oct 15, 2009

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Thanks, pj! I'm not sure if I will or not. I and others have thought of some changes and modifications to the model since I made it. René thought I ought to include the "canopy" over the towers. I had thought the slanting tubes should really be upright... I've come to think that this was probably the artists' original intention, and that they only (might have) shown them tilted so that they're form would be apparent from the top-down view used. I don't know of course.

BTW, the producers of the 2020/21 Travel Channel Documentary on the Voynich (which I am in) asked if they could use these models in the presentation. So I sent them the original hi-res renderings, and you can see them there. And FYI, I made a page of other 3D renderings, both mine and those of others... including the wonderful sculptures of Cary Rapaport:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

I think 3D renderings are a great tool to see things that no longer exist in person, to help get an idea of what the original artist may have envisioned.

Thanks again, Rich.

---

(05-04-2024, 03:32 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.When I look at people's estimates, I also have to ask myself questions.
Example:
When a new fashion emerges in Italy (Milan), it may take 10 or 20 years for it to be captured in pictures.
It might take 20 or 30 years for this fashion to reach the north, and another 10 or 20 years for it to be captured in pictures there too.
If one person is more familiar with Italy and the other with northern Europe, I would consider both estimates to be reasonable.
After all, it's not a car model where I know exactly whether it was built in '72, '86 or '94, and the drawings are anything but accurate. And the fashion change was certainly not every spring.

I agree, Aga.

(05-04-2024, 03:56 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had thought the slanting tubes should really be upright... I've come to think that this was probably the artists' original intention, and that they only (might have) shown them tilted so that they're form would be apparent from the top-down view used. I don't know of course.

There have been lots of interpretations of the "tubes" or "pipes". Personally, I see them as representing communication between the spiritual world (Heaven) and the physical world (Earth). If that is the case, then I would say that the "tubes" or "pipes" should point in the direction of the physical world. Of course there is disagreement on if the outer circles are the physical world or the spiritual world so I don't know if they should point up or at the outer circles.

I don't know if you have been following my ideas about Ensoulment, Gestation, and Pregnancy. I think the "tubes" or "pipes" in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represent the connection that initially exists between the new baby soul in the womb and Heaven.

Some of the Zodiac pages show the "nymphs" standing in some kind of container. Some people call these things baskets. Some people think these are the same "tubes" or "pipes" as on the Rosettes page. I don't know. I don't know the meaning of the "tubes" or "pipes" or "baskets" on the Zodiac pages. I don't know why some "nymphs" have them and some don't.

(05-04-2024, 04:47 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-04-2024, 03:56 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I had thought the slanting tubes should really be upright... I've come to think that this was probably the artists' original intention, and that they only (might have) shown them tilted so that they're form would be apparent from the top-down view used. I don't know of course.

There have been lots of interpretations of the "tubes" or "pipes". Personally, I see them as representing communication between the spiritual world (Heaven) and the physical world (Earth). If that is the case, then I would say that the "tubes" or "pipes" should point in the direction of the physical world. Of course there is disagreement on if the outer circles are the physical world or the spiritual world so I don't know if they should point up or at the outer circles.

I don't know if you have been following my ideas about Ensoulment, Gestation, and Pregnancy. I think the "tubes" or "pipes" in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represent the connection that initially exists between the new baby soul in the womb and Heaven.

Some of the Zodiac pages show the "nymphs" standing in some kind of container. Some people call these things baskets. Some people think these are the same "tubes" or "pipes" as on the Rosettes page. I don't know. I don't know the meaning of the "tubes" or "pipes" or "baskets" on the Zodiac pages. I don't know why some "nymphs" have them and some don't.

I do like the various interpretations of the tubes, and other features, as relating to gestation and pregnancy in some way. Those ideas go back quite a way, but you seem to have... like many have... your own additional interpretations of these and (seemingly) related features. Not that it matters, but I can see them being possible.

Even f69r, although if it means what you think, I would say it has a dual purpose... for I think it far more than coincidental that the relative diameters of the rings, and the "spokes", and even the points of the central star, all match the proportions and features of a diatom found off the coast of Japan in the late 19th century. An engraving of this specimen is found in "The Microscope And Its Revelations", by William B. Carpenter. The foldout engraving of this diatom does not appear in all editions... it is in the 1875 edition I have. Here is my comparison:



More than this one comparison, there are several other images in that one volume which are also strikingly similar to various Voynich illustrations. I've got a list of many of them, and other books of microscopy and so on, in this post:

https://proto57.wordpress.com/2021/04/21/sources-for-the-voynich-forgery/

But that does not mean that this or any image might not have multiple meanings to the author. A friend of mine, EV, had made many comparisons to anatomical features, herself, and they are often included in Voynich representations that seem to have additional purposes in addition to the purely representational.

Anyway, I'll check out your ideas. Are your website or videos linked in your profile here?

Rich.

(05-04-2024, 08:37 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, I'll check out your ideas. Are your website or videos linked in your profile here?

I haven't put them in my profile, just posts.


Ensoulment & the Voynich Manuscript, v 1.1
Mar 31, 2024
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


Pregnancy & the Voynich Manuscript, v. 1.0
Apr 2, 2024
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-04-2024, 08:54 PM)pjburkshire Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

(05-04-2024, 08:37 PM)proto57 Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anyway, I'll check out your ideas. Are your website or videos linked in your profile here?

I haven't put them in my profile, just posts.


Ensoulment & the Voynich Manuscript, v 1.1
Mar 31, 2024
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.


Pregnancy & the Voynich Manuscript, v. 1.0
Apr 2, 2024
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

OK! I'll check them out.. Rich.

The idea of 'listening to the experts' is subject to interpretation. One might note that all the proposed experts agree that the VMs is at least 400 years old, in current terms, being made before 1600.

Listening to the experts, one might say: Hmm, they might be right. OR, they clearly failed to detect Wilfrid's cunning plan.

Fundamental:
Why would Wilfrid be the forger?
Could it not also have been the Jesuit monk?
He certainly had access to the books. Perhaps there was an empty, bound book. Why sell it empty and cheap when it can also be full and expensive? 

(06-04-2024, 06:22 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Fundamental:
Why would Wilfrid be the forger?
Could it not also have been the Jesuit monk?
He certainly had access to the books. Perhaps there was an empty, bound book. Why sell it empty and cheap when it can also be full and expensive? 

I wouldn't say that is not possible, although I don't think so, personally. I think it was probably Wilfrid, but often phrase it as, "made by or for Wilfrid"... probably with help. But of course it could have only been others, and not him. He did sell at least two forgeries that were clearly not by him, and I suspect three others, not so identified... including (another) map (no, not the Vinland Map forgery), a possible addition of illustrations to an existing work, a lone art sketch, and a codex. But that is this amateur's speculation, and also, I do think that if he did create the Voynich, himself, it is the only one he did.

I do think those who have seen different "hands" and "styles" in the work are probably right, but wouldn't know what number is the correct number. But I suspect Wilfrid was among them. For one thing, look at the style of several Vms animals:



And compare features, such as fur, ears, legs, FEET(!!!), eyes, tails, and overall quality (or lack) and "look", to the cat in Wilfrid's Sessa logo:



If I were put on the rack and being tortured, which many here would probably enjoy, I would GUESS... speculate... on a few people responsible in addition to Wilfrid, but that would be, at the best, intuitive, with nothing (so far) to back it up. But I would say there were probably two or three others involved, IMHO.

"Perhaps there was an empty, bound book."

For various reasons*, I believe this was made from a stack of full sized folios, which were cut down to make this quarto-sized manuscript. But yes, empty materials... maybe with at most some quire numbers on some of them. Again, not telling anyone what to think, I'm just responding to the questions and comments.... which as always, I appreciate.

* some white, cut edges on some sheets; the "unusual" foldouts; the odd placement of some quire numbers; and scars and other imperfections running from leaf to leaf (as noted by Pelling, although he gives an alternative reason for them). I've outlined these ideas, and others, here:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

Rich.